Torqeedo Outboards?

[Tim Good]

Quick Question:
Has anyone used a Torqeedo outboard and let me know how they compare to petrol in terms of torque and power when rated to a similar HP?

Background:
We have a 3.5HP Mercury 4 Stroke and it get me to plane in our small avon dingy no problem. But it isn't powerful enough to get two of us to plane. Nearly but not quite. We're both quite light people if you hadn't guessed!

We plane now at 10-12 kts and its more efficient. We want to be able to take longer distance adventures up rivers and Fjords. However, I'd like to go electric for and considering a Torqeedo. So I want to know if a 5HP version would realistically match a 5HP 4 stroke outboard. I'm not totally familiar with how HP is calculated and I'm sure HP doesn't account for torque which may help a boat get to plane.

Here is my reasoning for electric:

• No use of carbon fuels
  Lighter weight to handle (when batter is detached)
  Waterproof
  We make plenty of electricity through solar so no need to store petrol in cans.

 

[maby]

While there is charge in the battery, they are lovely - and expensive. When the battery runs flat, they are just expensive and useless for an hour or two. I need a new outboard and looked at them, but there is no way that they make sense for us, at least.

 

[MoodySabre]

I have the 1003 Travel. It's an excellent thing but at the price it should be.

Yes it has lots of torque - the gentle application of power is essential.

The distance you can travel is of course directly related to speed. From memory mine will last over 2 hours at 2kn but only 40mins at 4kn. This is with a standard battery. Long trips in isolated places? Have an easily rowed dinghy.

Charging time at 12v is an overnight job.

The other issue is security. A battered outboard has a chance of being ignored - a shiny orange thing might not. You can of course take the battery with you when you park it up somewhere but it is heavy and the bag they provide has a shoulder strap rather than more preferable rucksack straps.

I think the performance details are on the website.

 

[RupertW]

We have had one for 4 seasons now.

We had a heavy 3m rib that wouldn't get up on the plane even with our 5hp 4-stroke so weren't expecting planing performance. The Torqueedo has probably been the best boat gadget I've ever bought - just beating the £1.99 hook and bungee luggage strap for keeping the main on the reefing hook while I go back to the cockpit to hoist it.

The two big hassles we wanted to stop were the heaviness of lifting down the 5hp, and the fact my wife didn't like starting it so I'd have to accompany her on every shopping trip ashore - and that petrol stations always seemed to be a long walk up a hill in blistering heat.

The Torqueedo is perfect for our kind of dinghy use - up to half a mile each way through an anchorage no more than maybe 3 times a day. The battery is light and easy to lift off by its handle and charges back 20% in a couple of hours through an inverter from the ships battery bank, so completely topped up after each trip. One handed passing of the 3 bits down into the dinghy.

They now have batteries with almost double the capacity of what we bought but we have only once been remotely concerned when we were nearly a mile from the town in a real chop so much more throttle than usual needed - fine for the return journey but we were due to go back for our evening meal only an hour or so later so worried a little about the second return journey - as it turned out the hour and a bit charging brought it back giving us a margin of 20% in the end.

For security we always have a chain through the battery handle and padlocked to the dinghy along with the body of the engine.

Downsides - long range use, bigger waves - so we have kept the 5hp (which gets our new 2.5m light ally rib on the plane) but use it very rarely.

 

[Tim Good]

We have had one for 4 seasons now.

We had a heavy 3m rib that wouldn't get up on the plane even with our 5hp 4-stroke so weren't expecting planing performance. The Torqueedo has probably been the best boat gadget I've ever bought - just beating the £1.99 hook and bungee luggage strap for keeping the main on the reefing hook while I go back to the cockpit to hoist it.

The two big hassles we wanted to stop were the heaviness of lifting down the 5hp, and the fact my wife didn't like starting it so I'd have to accompany her on every shopping trip ashore - and that petrol stations always seemed to be a long walk up a hill in blistering heat.

The Torqueedo is perfect for our kind of dinghy use - up to half a mile each way through an anchorage no more than maybe 3 times a day. The battery is light and easy to lift off by its handle and charges back 20% in a couple of hours through an inverter from the ships battery bank, so completely topped up after each trip. One handed passing of the 3 bits down into the dinghy.

They now have batteries with almost double the capacity of what we bought but we have only once been remotely concerned when we were nearly a mile from the town in a real chop so much more throttle than usual needed - fine for the return journey but we were due to go back for our evening meal only an hour or so later so worried a little about the second return journey - as it turned out the hour and a bit charging brought it back giving us a margin of 20% in the end.

For security we always have a chain through the battery handle and padlocked to the dinghy along with the body of the engine.

Downsides - long range use, bigger waves - so we have kept the 5hp (which gets our new 2.5m light ally rib on the plane) but use it very rarely.

Thanks... so which Torqeedo do you have and does it plane your new smaller rib?

 

[RupertW]

The 1003 - with the 550 TWU capacity not the current 950.

Can't imagine it planing the new one but haven't tried.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I've got the 1003 with the bigger battery. Two up in my 3.2m 3D "light weight" tender it won't plane. It's a great pottering outboard but if you want planing power then I think you'll be disappointed.

 

[pvb]

I've got the 1003 with the bigger battery. Two up in my 3.2m 3D "light weight" tender it won't plane. It's a great pottering outboard but if you want planing power then I think you'll be disappointed.

Yes, I'd agree. I have a 1003 Torqeedo, fabulous for wandering about, but not a performance motor.

 

[lpdsn]

Thanks... so which Torqeedo do you have and does it plane your new smaller rib?

What you need is a bank of four of these on the back of your RIB.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/BISON-ELEC...51303179&sr=8-4&keywords=bison+trolling+motor

With about a thousand Ah of lead acid batteries.

 

[Boo2]

Quick Question:
Has anyone used a Torqeedo outboard and let me know how they compare to petrol in terms of torque and power when rated to a similar HP?

I had a Travel 1003 and it was substantially less powerful than my 2 stroke Tohatsu 3.5 hp outboard. My perception is it was around 1/2 - 2/3 the power.

Boo2

 

[Tim Good]

Ian,

Really appreciate the response. My main reason for going electric would be environmental consideration but if i was able to do away with a petrol outboard entirely then that would be a double win. However you're post clearly shows that i'm not going to be able plane and so I'll likely need both. So with that in mind, I have some questions:

1. It says the 1.5hp and 3hp engines are the same weight on the Torqeedo site. Is that correct?
2. Whats the difference between the 1003 and 1003c. I can't quite determine if it is worth while getting he later 2019 C model?
3. In your opinion which is the better brand in terms of build and value for money. Torqeedo or Epropulsion. I appreciate you may not ant to answer this publicly but as an impartial reseller of both I think you can legitimately have an opinion.

 

[TQA]

About a year ago I towed a Torqeedo owner back to his boat after we both hit the same underwater obstruction. I was lucky and my Tohatsu prop bounced off with no damage but his prop was damaged and something in the drive train was broken and his LED display was showing a fault code.

It was a long tow and he was pretty glum saying that this was the second time he had prop damage and that it has to go back to the dealer to get fixed. 400 quid last time he said.

 

[Tim Good]

About a year ago I towed a Torqeedo owner back to his boat after we both hit the same underwater obstruction. I was lucky and my Tohatsu prop bounced off with no damage but his prop was damaged and something in the drive train was broken and his LED display was showing a fault code.

It was a long tow and he was pretty glum saying that this was the second time he had prop damage and that it has to go back to the dealer to get fixed. 400 quid last time he said.

A fair consideration. I've broken two drive pins in the last 6 months once on a rock and once on some rope in the water. Both time it just cost me £1 for a new pin.

 

[nestawayboats]

Northcave, no problem, as I say we get the question about electric and petrol equivalence a lot. To achieve planing with electric outboards is currently very expensive so a "two-engine-solution" is not actually that uncommon: the small, light, easy to use electric for most day-to-day use; and a 5hp-plus (often 10hp-plus) petrol for occasions when greater range/speed is desired.

It may also be interesting to know that for us sales of electric motors now far exceed sales of small petrol ones. Some kind of tipping point has been reached, among our customers at least.

In answer to your direct questions:

(1) The Torqeedo 503 (which they call 1.5hp) and the 1003 (3hp) shaft/motor weights are the same (just under 9kg) but they are supplied with different batteries. 320Wh for the 503 and 532Wh (ie 65% more) for the 1003, with the 532Wh battery being the same physical size but weighing about 1kg more. Up to 500W output, ie at the same speed and all else being equal, the two motors will use the same power - so you also get 65% more range from the 1003, until you decide to use some or all of its extra power. With about £200 difference between the motors and about half of that accounted for by the different battery capacities, by far the majority of people go for the extra power (ie the 1003). It's not hard to imagine occasions when you don't have far to motor but it's against quite a lot of tide, when being able to access twice as much power would be desirable.

(2) The 1003 has the 532Wh battery as described above. The 1003C (C for Capacity!) has Torqeedo's latest 916Wh battery, ie an extra 70% over the 532Wh battery, or nearly 3 times the capacity of the 320Wh battery supplied with the 503.

(2b) Just to confuse things the new Torqeedo 1103C (blink and you miss it, that's 1103 not 1003) is about to arrive. This is Torqeedo's new 1100W direct drive motor, which to all intents and purposes looks the same as the 1003 but has a completely different motor at the bottom, and officially will be supplied only with the 916Wh battery (although we will swap it, and price downwards accordingly, if someone wants to). The main difference is the 1003 has a smaller motor spinning faster than the desired propeller speed, so it has a reduction gearbox; the new 1103 has a larger, slower turning motor and hence no need for a gearbox. The result is the 1103 is much quieter (the 1003 has always made some gearbox noise, albeit much quieter than a petrol motor), and mechanically more simple, but 2.4kg heavier than the 1003. It also has a maximum output of 1100W rather than 1000W, but we doubt it will make a lot of difference to speed potential (it certainly won't get anything on the plane, as it still has a relatively low maximum restricted shaft speed). Also of course, as it's 10% more powerful, at full power the 1103 has the potential to drain the battery 10% faster...

As an aside, technically-minded readers may have spotted that the new Torqeedo 1103 is more similar, in respect of its drive system, to the "rival" Epropulsion Spirit introduced in Europe a few years ago, than the "old" (but still very much available) Torqeedo 1003.

(3) The Epropulsion Spirit direct drive 1000W motor at £1529 is most directly comparable to the new Torqeedo 1103C direct drive 1100W motor at around £1700. So the Epropulsion is about £200 cheaper and has 10% more battery capacity (1018Wh vs 916Wh). There are other plusses and minusses for each but we consider them to be otherwise pretty close overall. The older design Torqeedo 1003C (ie with the 916Wh battery is typically sold at about £1550, and the 1003 (with the 532Wh battery) is typically sold at about £1350. The one remaining trump card of the 1003 models is weight, but (unless that 2kg or so is absolutely vital) personally I'd go for one of the direct drive models. They are much quieter, with greater mechanical simplicity and no gearbox for the software to be over-protective of. In terms of build quality/reliability I honestly don't think there's much between them. I have heard of derogatory comments about the fact that the Epropulsion is of Chinese origin, but (so is your iPhone and) I think it's fair to say that whilst the Torqeedo is German-assembled that's German-assembled from an international supply chain (quite possibly including components from the Far East). For example neither truly "make" the contents of their own batteries, which the last time I looked inside come from Panasonic or Samsung. Generally speaking both are far more reliable/trouble free than petrol outboards, and the very rare problems - as with most electronics - are found in the first couple of hours (when some kind of manufacturing fault is exposed that wasn't obvious at factory, eg a poorly soldered connection). Basically if they work to start with they will keep on working. Longer term, occasionally we get problems due to corrosion/neglect of connectors (spraying them with something like WD40 helps a lot). Then there is other basic maintenance like greasing the screw threads on the clamps but that's true of any motor, petrol or electric.

We don't think you can go far wrong with either brand in the "1kW electric with a lithium battery on top" category, so long as you also accept neither will ever get you on the plane.

Ian Thomson
Nestaway Boats

 

[Tim Good]

Excellent reply again. Thanks!

 

[nestawayboats]

Shear pins: another possible point in favour of either of the direct drive electric outboards, ie the Epropulsion Spirit and the new Torqeedo 1103, as opposed to the Torqeedo 1003.

As hopefully we explained in another recent post, the 1003 has a relatively small, fast-spinning motor attached to a reduction gearbox to achieve the desired shaft speed. The software seems to be quite protective of this gearbox, and the 1003 shear pins are possibly (possibly for the same reason) softer than you might expect. If you are unlucky they can sometimes half shear and chew up the inside of the propeller, but that's still far better (cheaper, and DIY) to fix than gearbox damage.

Shear pin shearing is of course somewhat down to luck - especially in murky UK waters! - so this is anecdotal, but using our demo Epropulsion for two years now we have never sheared a shear pin. And that included some absolutely outrageous abuse in a river that clearly hadn't been navigated for some while. From time-to-time the Epropulsion stopped simply because the propeller was so clogged up with weed it physically couldn't turn any more, but once cleared it kept soldiering on without complaint. It would be nearly impossible to undertake a truly identical test but I am 90% sure a Torqeedo 1003 would not have done as well in those conditions, and that its shear pin would have sheared. I think the Epropulsion shear pin is stronger and less prone to shearing, but have no definitive proof of that.

We haven't tried one on the water yet - they are due to arrive in UK very soon - but the new direct drive (no gearbox) Torqeedo 1103 has a different propeller to the 1003 (different part number anyway) and the whole thing generally seems to be more robust than the 1003. I guess that is logical, Torqeedo has been making the 1003 for quite a long time so they would improve things where possible.

To quote Torqeedo's catalogue for example they say the new 1103 has "a stronger aluminium pylon for increased protection from impact damage and an upgraded transom mount" {compared with the 1003}.

Ian Thomson
Nestaway Boats

 

[Bouba]

Shear pins: another possible point in favour of either of the direct drive electric outboards, ie the Epropulsion Spirit and the new Torqeedo 1103, as opposed to the Torqeedo 1003.

As hopefully we explained in another recent post, the 1003 has a relatively small, fast-spinning motor attached to a reduction gearbox to achieve the desired shaft speed. The software seems to be quite protective of this gearbox, and the 1003 shear pins are possibly (possibly for the same reason) softer than you might expect. If you are unlucky they can sometimes half shear and chew up the inside of the propeller, but that's still far better (cheaper, and DIY) to fix than gearbox damage.

Shear pin shearing is of course somewhat down to luck - especially in murky UK waters! - so this is anecdotal, but using our demo Epropulsion for two years now we have never sheared a shear pin. And that included some absolutely outrageous abuse in a river that clearly hadn't been navigated for some while. From time-to-time the Epropulsion stopped simply because the propeller was so clogged up with weed it physically couldn't turn any more, but once cleared it kept soldiering on without complaint. It would be nearly impossible to undertake a truly identical test but I am 90% sure a Torqeedo 1003 would not have done as well in those conditions, and that its shear pin would have sheared. I think the Epropulsion shear pin is stronger and less prone to shearing, but have no definitive proof of that.

We haven't tried one on the water yet - they are due to arrive in UK very soon - but the new direct drive (no gearbox) Torqeedo 1103 has a different propeller to the 1003 (different part number anyway) and the whole thing generally seems to be more robust than the 1003. I guess that is logical, Torqeedo has been making the 1003 for quite a long time so they would improve things where possible.

To quote Torqeedo's catalogue for example they say the new 1103 has "a stronger aluminium pylon for increased protection from impact damage and an upgraded transom mount" {compared with the 1003}.

Ian Thomson
Nestaway Boats

I’m a Torqeedo user, and like others I regard it as one of my better decisions. I never really knew much about the Epropulsion except that it was silent and that it’s battery floats (which is a brilliant idea that I think about a lot when I’m gingerly taking the battery from tender to mothership). But I chose the Torqeedo because it’s reputation and longevity. Of course, like everything, longevity means it’s about to be superceded. While I like more power, simpler, quieter, reliable trading that off for weight is wrong. Ask almost anyone who’s thinking of changing to a Torqeedo and weight is their first consideration, even before petrol.
Thank you for your posts, they are very informative:encouragement:

 

[pvb]

Ask almost anyone who’s thinking of changing to a Torqeedo and weight is their first consideration, even before petrol.

I think that absolute weight isn't the issue; the attraction of the Torqeedo for me was that it breaks down into 3 easily handled pieces, rather than having to transfer a single heavy lump into the tender. If one or two pieces were to be a bit heavier I don't think that would be an issue.

 

[Bouba]

I think that absolute weight isn't the issue; the attraction of the Torqeedo for me was that it breaks down into 3 easily handled pieces, rather than having to transfer a single heavy lump into the tender. If one or two pieces were to be a bit heavier I don't think that would be an issue.

Yes, I agree. If the extra weight were in the tiller arm that would be perfect! But the shaft is the most awkward part. But to be honest if I was buying now, then the new Torqeedo would have me thinking

 

[nestawayboats]

Weight is certainly one of the most important reasons people buy these motors yes. I'd say ease of use (no starter cord, choke or carburetor gumming to deal with), and ease of storage (nothing to leak out - hang it upside down if you want) are also right up there. The quietness and smoothness are largely seen as massive bonuses but not necessarily decisive. In some markets, not so much the UK (yet) legislation is driving it too; many inland waterway authorities have banned or are considering banning combustion engines altogether (eg German/Swiss lakes).

One has to assume the new (direct drive) Torqeedo 1103 was developed at least in part to respond to the competition from the (direct drive) Epropulsion. The 1103 is billed by Torqeedo as their new flagship portable model, and as they put it "The new Travel 1103 C adds 10% more power, increased durability and is much quieter, while weighing just 2.4 kg more."

To clarify on weight then:
- the Torqeedo 1003 (oldest design, small fast spinning motor with reduction gearbox) shaft/motor weight (with battery removed) is 8.9kg
- the Epropulsion Spirit (direct drive) shaft/motor is 10.8kg
- the new Torqeedo 1103 (direct drive) shaft/motor is 11.5kg

In terms of "pass up and down from the big boat weight" - because you can clip the battery on when the motor is clamped to the dinghy's transom - all three are lighter than even the lightest 4-strokes; Honda & Suzuki's 2.5hp motors are quoted at around 13kg. But I think that 13kg is a dry weight, so at the very least you need to add sump oil to that - and most people I know choose to put fuel in the tank while the motor's on the (steadier platform) big boat - so perhaps more like 15kg. Two-strokes were lighter yes but cannot be purchased new (since 2006) and I don't recall any of them being as light as 11.5kg. (Maybe the now-ancient Yamaha 2, empty of fuel - I'm sure someone here will know.)

The Epropulsion batteries are heavier than the Torqeedo ones - not least because the capacity is 10% more than the largest Torqeedo option - but still lighter than the motor part, and much easier (in terms of shape) to handle. The weight disadvantage of the Eprop battery is arguably outweighed by the fact it floats if dropped... (the Torqeedo ones don't!).

Battery weights:
- Torqeedo 320Wh (rarely purchased nowadays, still theoretically available) 4.2kg
- Torqeedo 532Wh (standard with 1003) 5.3kg
- Torqeedo 916Wh (standard with 1003C and 1103C) 6kg
- Epropulsion 1018Wh (only option) 7.8kg

As an aside the three Torqeedo batteries all come in the same size casing. When it was launched, the 320Wh capacity battery seemed like a massive step forward... 10 years later they are getting nearly three times as much capacity (ie 916Wh) into the same volume. That increase in battery capacity seems to be what's made this type of motor really become "mainstream" - for many users 916Wh (or typically about 2hrs at about 4 to 4.5 knots, 1hr at 5.5 knots) represent's several days use.

The new direct drive Torqeedo 1103 is due to arrive in UK within days now. We will publish more comparative information as soon as we can put them all (Torqeedo 1003 & 1103, Epropulsion Spirit) next to each other.

Ian Thomson
Nestaway Boats