Toilet inlet seacock won't close - risks over winter?

[catlotion]

We've been doing some winter preparations and have found that the toilet inlet seacock's handle was so corroded it broke off. We've been able to turn the axle with pliers but doesn't seem to shut it completely. (It's quite a new boat to us and surveyor didn't mention it)

With limited funds we'd rather not have to crane out for this one job just now. But my big worry is that the water in the pipe will freeze and crack the pipe/seacock (Boat will be on a swing mooring on Windermere).

I was thinking that the swing mooring may be less risky than in a marina as the boat and water is moving more. But after last winter...

Does anyone think leaving it is worth the risk? I know the right thing to do is crane out but... Do you think we can insulate it somehow? We can also probably get a wooden bung in the outside if we're prepared to get a little wet...

cheers

 

[greenalien]

Is it a proper seacock (handle turns through 90 degrees to close it) or a gate valve (takes several complete turns to open and close). If it's the latter, it's not really suitable for use as a heads fitting and should be replaced with the proper fitting asap. Same goes for the outlet as well.

 

[Golf Charley]

How many seacocks have you got, what material, and do they appear to be in a similar condition?

Who are you going to blame if your boat sinks?

Sorry for being so blunt.

 

[VicS]

Is it a proper seacock (handle turns through 90 degrees to close it) or a gate valve (takes several complete turns to open and close). If it's the latter, it's not really suitable for use as a heads fitting and should be replaced with the proper fitting asap. Same goes for the outlet as well.

Or a ball valve ?.... They are the ones which have manky steel handles that corrode and break off.

It should be possible to fit a new handle in situ.

 

[catlotion]

It's a ball valve - 90 degrees to turn on and off. Similar to this:

Can't tell whether bronze or brass though - there's some greenish corrosion on it (got photos but can't get them off my phone at the moment). It's a 1986 Beneteau.

I wanted to replace the handle but it only turns 80 degrees or so and there seems to be just a big corroded lump on the end of the axle...

 

[Vara]

I share your grief, I had a lift out a couple of weeks ago during which I serviced the sea cocks, back in, and yesterday the same thing happened to me.

Short term I have removed inlet hose and put a wooden bung into hose tail, this has stemmed inflow for the time being.

Long term I will take it round to the drying grid and replace cock, not an option for you on Windermere unfortunately.

You dont say what boat you have, is it possible to take it along side and tip it over with halyard to allow you to put a bung into the skin fitting and then replace seacock in water!

Ah a Beneteau depending on its size, tipping it over may be an option.

 

[Simondjuk]

At the risk of stating the obvious, if, as you say, you can get a bung in the through hull, then surely you can change the valve fitted to the thorough hull once the bung is in.

Just be sure not to rotate the through hull when unscrewing the old valve from it or when refitting the new one.

 

[catlotion]

of course! That is the obvious! d'oh!

Still a bit of a worry though - I hate messing about with stuff relating to holes in the boat...

It's an Oceanis 350 - and we did think about tipping it over a bit, but after inspection with a boat hook yesterday I think I can reach it to get a bung in there. (If the pike don't nibble my fingers off)

I imagine that loosening the interface between skin fitting and seacock won't be easy though - any tips? Do you just hold the back of the skin fitting and slacken off the seacock assembly?

thanks for input everyone btw...

 

[Heckler]

of course! That is the obvious! d'oh!

Still a bit of a worry though - I hate messing about with stuff relating to holes in the boat...

It's an Oceanis 350 - and we did think about tipping it over a bit, but after inspection with a boat hook yesterday I think I can reach it to get a bung in there. (If the pike don't nibble my fingers off)

I imagine that loosening the interface between skin fitting and seacock won't be easy though - any tips? Do you just hold the back of the skin fitting and slacken off the seacock assembly?

thanks for input everyone btw...

My mate changed an inch and a half seacock afloat, his wife went under with a bung, they then unscrewed the cock and fitted a new one.
Stu

 

[Simondjuk]

You'd normally hold the skin fitting using the hex or tangs in its internal diameter. With a bung in the hole, this won't be possible. If there's a sufficiently long threaded portion showing between the back nut on the skin fitting and the valve, I'd wrap this with a few turns of rag to protect the thread, grip it with a pair of waterpump pliers and hold it very firmly to prevent rotation of the skin fitting whilst using a spanner on the hex end of the ball valve. Aside from the obvious precaution of making sure the waterpump pliers are not allowed to rotate, also leave some of the threaded portion of the skin fitting exposed and watch very carefully to be sure that it's not rotating due to slipping inside the rag/pliers.

I'd much rather mess around with it in the water and have any potential leak occur whilst I was onboard then leave the corroded fitting in place whilst the boat is left unattended and chance to luck whether it has sunk or not when you next return.

 

[johnlilley]

The only word of warning I might offer is that if, you had to claim on insurance for subsequent serious problem related to the seacock, the insurers will more than likely refuse the claim. Unfortunately it is so common for insurers to not accept a claim on the basis of lack of maintenance (their words) & so many of us rely on insurance as a back up but so many will have no viable claim in the event of a failure that they see as a maintenance problem. This applies to so many different areas of the vessel, certainly more than most would think.
To sleep soundly I expect you will have to bite the bullet and do whatever has to be done, certainly a bit risky trying anything invasive whilst afloat unless you have immediate back up plan just in case!

John Lilley

 

[prv]

Just be sure not to rotate the through hull when unscrewing the old valve from it or when refitting the new one.

Easier said than done if it's all corroded though. Even without worrying about rotation (boat ashore) I was unable to unscrew my old valves and had to hacksaw through the skin fittings.

Pete

 

[Jamesuk]

Get a spanner and weld it to the old handle fitting. I once saw that on a Rival 32.

Otherwise lift the boat out and replace it.

 

[Simondjuk]

If he doesn't try, he'll never know.

A combination of tapping, heating and lubricating generally sees even the most stubborn threads release.

 

[VicS]

We've been able to turn the axle with pliers but doesn't seem to shut it completely.

Pliers not much good. Water pump pliers might be better but use a pair or vice (vise in the US) grips ( Mole wrench or similar)

Waggle it back and forth, use a bit of release oil perhaps. If it frees up panic over for the time being.

 

[catlotion]

we went for pliers so as not to put too much force on the body. I was concerned that there may be further corrosion and didn't want to fracture anything with too much force...

I've made an enquiry about crane-out and was told that it's best to leave this seacock open in winter so ice can expand outwards... Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Do you all leave your sea toilet inlet seacocks during winter?

 

[Vara]

We've been doing some winter preparations and have found that the toilet inlet seacock's handle was so corroded it broke off. We've been able to turn the axle with pliers but doesn't seem to shut it completely. (It's quite a new boat to us and surveyor didn't mention it)

With limited funds we'd rather not have to crane out for this one job just now. But my big worry is that the water in the pipe will freeze and crack the pipe/seacock (Boat will be on a swing mooring on Windermere).

I was thinking that the swing mooring may be less risky than in a marina as the boat and water is moving more. But after last winter...

Does anyone think leaving it is worth the risk? I know the right thing to do is crane out but... Do you think we can insulate it somehow? We can also probably get a wooden bung in the outside if we're prepared to get a little wet...

cheers

Just replaced mine whilst boat was in water, couldn't plug inlet from hulllside and couldn't be bothered to go round to the drying grid .

Basically just a matter of getting organised, wooden plug, spanners, and new cock all lined up. Removed old, bung in to tail, ptfe on thread, bung out, put on new cock.

Took about half a gallon of water into boat, but at no time was situation critical, doing it again I think I could cut ingress by about half.

Quite happy to travel to Windemere to do yours, put us up at at Cragwood and we'll pay our own petrol, Probably cost less than £500.

 

[jontifosi]

If you can put a wetsuit on and get a wooden bung with a rag do it yourself.
Just tap the bung in with a rag around it (gently but firm) the bung will expand slightly if left for a few days so will seal better.
I've done this hundreds of times on naval ships with 2" to 8" wooden tapered bungs and if the hole is bigger i've even done a 4ft x 8ft blanking plate, just 1 1/4" marine ply with foam backing 2 or 4 hook bolts onto grating under the ship and hey presto you dont' need to pay £250k for a docking.

To be honest even a sink plunger would do underneath as the suction of removing the valve inside will keep it on (bung is safer though)

 

[garvellachs]

broken handle

From our days at Windermere I remember a Feeling moored on one of the jetties at Bowness being pulled over by a halyard from the top of the mast to change a seacock. I think the seacock had a split ball because it had been left closed for the winter - ice trapped in the ball had expanded? I think you'd need at least two halyards for safety and I'd be cautious about pulling from the top of the mast if it's fractional - use the genoa and spinnaker halyards instead - you don't want to break the unsupported top of the mast off.

My experience like others is that it's very hard to separate the seacock from the thru-hull and the thru-hull will rotate and maybe start to leak unless you find a way of holding it very firmly. So I too would probably be prepared to remove both. A grinder makes short work of a thru-hull if you can get at it with the disk - it'll be demolished in seconds so take care. Mask up thoroughly all around it with something to stop the sparks damaging the interior.

Once the thru-hull is released (by cutting off the nut or ring that holds it) it'll just tap out. Plenty of sikaflex on the new one and insert it from outside from your dinghy. You can buy them from ASAP with a nib on the outside to stop them rotating (file a small notch in the hull to match) or find something to insert inside the ones with internal nibs to hold it still. But my guess is that when you tighten it up it'll stop rotating anyway because of the friction. The new ball valve can be just screwed on with some sikaflex or PTFE tape to seal it, or use a nut to tighten against it (still with the sealant) if you want to orientate it particularly.

If you ask an experienced friend or two to help I reckon you'll learn loads and have a great day doing it?

 

[david_bagshaw]

we went for pliers so as not to put too much force on the body. I was concerned that there may be further corrosion and didn't want to fracture anything with too much force...

I've made an enquiry about crane-out and was told that it's best to leave this seacock open in winter so ice can expand outwards... Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Do you all leave your sea toilet inlet seacocks during winter?

If you think about it....

with the valve closed , there is still water above the valve that might freeze.



if you are concerned the valve is damaged by corrosion, replace now. Dont reckon to undo, but drill off flange from outside, or grind out the flange. sounds horrendous , but easy and leaves a clean undamaged hole. done it a number of times, through a teak hull

If just stuck, bung from outside, and antifreeze down the pipe with the valve partly open, as the bits around the valve are not unknown from splitting with trapped water even when the pipe is empty.