Tohatsu MFS9.8A3 UL 9.8HP 4STR UL (£2,141.41p) in westerly centaur with dead engine

josephmoore said:
I would add knackered winches to that list. No way you're single handed hauling in a Centaur genoa with naff winches and if they're beyond repair a new set is plenty of hundreds of pounds. So far the Mirror and the Minstrel have been relatively blessed with small, easily handled foresails.
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good point...
i have thought about that

well if they turn at all then I am in business

if they don't turn at all then plan B would be a two part purchase on the sheets

like they do on the Broads boats

they want their genoas in pretty tight and some are huge

I had them on the slug

lots of rope - but rope is cheap

so winches are not mission critical
 
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None of those boats have old-school huge overlapping genoas - if you make it down to the Solent this winter come sail my Hurley 22 (similar, but more modest sail plan) in anything of a breeze. Not sure I could do it without a lot of block and tackle, which would just get stuck on the babystay all the time. Maybe I'm just feeble :D

I know I'd be adding winches to that list. They don't have to be amazing or shiny, but they do have to work on a boat like that.

EDIT: Actually, didn't mean to sound as aggressive as that; but it amazes me how much load there is on my genoa sheets with a big foresail and just 2 tonne displacement. Way more than on the 30' broads yacht I was on the other week where we didn't need the winches til it got up to a force 5.
 
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dylanwinter said:
what is the difference between a boat with knackered sails and one with brilliant ones - half a knot perhaps upwind
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Make that a knot and a half AND pointing 10 degrees higher. Big difference in VMG. Halving the time taken to get to an upwind destination maybe?

Of course, you've no need to go upwind if you've time on your hands to wait for the right slant.
 
While waiting for my lift out yesterday, as displacement activity i had a mooch about a Westerly Centaur to refresh my memory as its about 15 years since i sailed one. A cursory look would suggest that the fitting of an outboard well would be possible.

However I think that such a course would be misguided, an unecessarily complicated solution to solving the problem of a potentially unreliable engine.

However I defend Dylans right to go down this path, its not costing me anything and will have no impact on my sailing.
 
2nd_apprentice said:
That's almost the same as a brand new M-Power engine, you must be joking. Checked what the forum thinks of this particular engine, have you?
Buying an obscure Chinese engine of dubious quality and spending all that money and time on installing it has to be the worst option. Why do you think the seller wants it out?
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If that does not suit than how about a Yanmar 1 GM10 complete with gearbox and just 4 hours running for a similar price ?
http://engines.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=330781

Edit - just read Tranona's post and this is only 10hp so will not be enough for a Centaur
 
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As stated already, my experience of a donk in a well was that the water intakes fouled up PDQ. That means that you will need to lift it regularly so at least the intakes are out. A 9.8hp is surprisingly heavy ( I used to use the main sheet attached to a harness around the OB head as a hoist to lift out). Unless your well will have some whizziness built in so the motor can be secured in the retracted position, you will need to think how you will store it when not in the well. For me it became a right pain. So plan from the outset to avoid it.
 
I can see a plea for large scale sponsorship because a £2000 boat is going to be full of problems,take it from me that's what I paid for my boat! You might be lucky & someone will give you a boat otherwise Phase 1


You are listening to Stevie Wonder

(Your first day at work and all is fine and great)

Phase 2


You are listening to HOUSE music

(After a while you are so busy that you are not sure if you coming or going anymore)


Phase 3


You are listening to Metal
(This is what you feel like at month end)



Phase 4


You are listening to Hip Hop
(You become bloated due to stress, feel sluggish and suffer from constipation)


Phase 5


You are listening to GANGSTA RAP
(After more time passes, your eyes start to twitch, you forget what a "good hair day" feels like as you just fall out of bed and load up on caffeine!!)


And Finally
Phase 6 kicks in


You are listening to Techno (on Ecstasy)
The truth - (how all employees end up eventually.... ha ha ha)

PS:There should be photo's attached but sadly they did'nt come out.If anybody recognises that set of funny cat characters then I would be obliged if they know how to post them if they would do so.......(Clyst has one from the series as his avatar)
 
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I can go along with almost everything BUT I would seriously suggest that you're badly underestimating the problem of knackered sails

A Centaur isn't a light boat and with the best will in the world they ain't too special to windward when in apple pie order. Nor are they particularly generously canvassed so their light airs performance isn't going to set the world on fire either. And that's with decent rags up the stick

The difference new sails made to Brigantia was more like a knot plus on average. What's more, we suddenly found ourselves making genuine progress to windward instead of flogging backwards and forwards to no real effect. The benefit was substantial from close hauled all the way to broad reaching. We were, in the interests of absolute truth, slightly worse off downwind as we cut the genoa from an unwieldy 155% to a more manageable 140% and it was cut higher in the foot too but we made up for that with a cruising chute. The upshot of the new sails was a significant reduction in engine time when on passage.

My genuine concern, setting aside any doubts about the engine proposal itself, is that the viability of the 10hp outboard is predicated on it only being used as an auxiliary and that assumption is going to be optimistic if the boat sails like a brick ... which is what I expect it will sail like without some decent canvas!

I still think the basic idea is nuts by the way. Oh sure, it can be done and it will work for a given value of "work" but it's still effectively wrecking a Centaur hull because that 10hp engine really isn't adequate as anything other than an auxiliary, it totally buggres up the cockpit which very few people would find acceptable and in this modern world few people have the lifestyle, or the patience for that matter, to wait around until the weather is perfect for sailing before going for it. Provided you're prepared to virtually write off the investment in the Centaur when you get bored with it and move on to the next project that isn't a show stopper I suppose

Though it has to be said that I genuinely fear for your safety if you get caught (as we did off Lowestoft) in an unexpected heavy squall whilst trying to motor into port with a grossly under powered engine installation ... and argue as much as you like, a 10hp outboard is NOT going to shove a Centaur effectively into a steep head sea against a near gale. A 6hp outboard in a boat with less than half the displacement of a Centaur struggled. That's a virtually new engine, in a well, properly propped and the problem wasn't cavitation or the engine lifting out of the water. And the squall was not forecast and appeared out of nowhere in a matter of minutes.

OK, I know you're going to say that you never do that and to date you've never had to (and the scenario we encountered off Lowestoft was, according to much more experienced people than us, exceptionally unusual) but you've got some quite long passages up ahead in waters where there are few safe havens to run for and which are thoroughly exposed to the Atlantic weather and swell. Not saying you can't do it with what you're proposing but I do think your "WTF do I do now?" options when plans go pear shaped are going to be limited by the lack of grunt and the lack of range

And your wish list is pushing it too - fixed keels, dry boat, decent rigging and sails for £2k? Good luck with that one. Mind you the publicity might just turn something up out of the recesses of a yard somewhere that someone is willing to let go for silly money just to see the project happen!
 
Hadn't thought of winches, good point that man

I think Dylan you're seriously underestimating the degree to which you're proposing to upscale here. A Centaur isn't like a bit bigger than Katie L, it's a LOT bigger. Might only be a tads longer and a tads wider but it's more than double the displacement and that translates into MUCH bigger loadings on everything

We've just made that step up in scale and I was really surprised at how much more effort it takes to tack and that's with virtually brand new Harken two speeders on the genoa sheets (previous owner didn't shilly shally when it came to spending money on her, if she needed it she got the best regardless of cost!).

I think you're determination to make the outboard well project work is blinding you to a lot of other potential issues but I suspect one is simply whistling in the wind pointing this out!
 
dylanwinter said:
.....
Running this around the forum has helped massively as it has thrown up lots of snags and forced me to confront my devils

and obviously deeply angered some people to the point of using language they would never use in the real world to a fellow stranger
......
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Maybe I am a bit insensitive but I do not detect any anger from the numerous posters on this thread. Plenty of defensive posturing (there always is) and quite a lot of teasing but that is all.

Anyway, my latest thought is the cost of the wear and tear on your nerves if you went down the o/b in a well route. I know your sailing is very different from a lot of the people on here. We, for example, have to use our engine more frequently than we would like because work demands that we can only sail in 2-3 week chunks so there are times when we have to get from A to B in a defined time. You are lucky that you can wait until wind and sea conditions are suitable for each of your passage legs but there will be times when you are caught out in sea conditions that make using an engine desirable. Off the wind you will have no problems as the sails will give you better boat speed than any engine could but going upwind to make a tidal gate for instance, using an engine together with your sails can give that extra knot or two that can make all the difference. I am not trying to teach you how to suck eggs - all of the above, I know you know :). I would much prefer the comforting thump of a low revving diesel to the screaming of a high revving outboard. It just makes life so much more relaxed

Like others, I wish you well with the well if you go down that route but I really think an second hand inboard would be superior.

Erbas said:
..... A Centaur isn't like a bit bigger than Katie L, it's a LOT bigger. Might only be a tads longer and a tads wider but it's more than double the displacement and that translates into MUCH bigger loadings on everything .....
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+1 We upgraded from a 31' Westerly to a 36' Westerly and the increase in loadings is incredible. The boat is only 20% longer but the loadings feel more like double. When we got Storyline we were not impressed with her smallish main but now after several seasons there is no way we would ever increase it's size - even by an inch. The power/forces you feel when sailing off the wind in a 8 ton+ boat is breathtaking (a bit off topic, apols)
 
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Centaur and Wanderer 3

Well Dylan has done quiet a few miles in the slug and KatieL and he knows what type of sailing he does with minimal engine use.Might be a bitofachop job but if the strength issues are delt with Im sure he he will find it will fit his purposeful sailing . Laurent Giles designed Wanderer 3 with 4 hp . Wanderer 3 only has 16 hp now and weighing in at 10 tons , by comparison a Giles Centaur 3tons with 10hp might be a tad overpowered !

http://www.bluemoment.com/hiscocks.html
 
thanks for your concern chaps

my nerves are good

my optimism is high

I am a patient man - you have to be patient to sail a Mirror Offshore for five years and enjoy every second


boat speed under sail ... if KTL was about boat speed or just sailing 2,000 miles around an island for yacht club bragging rights then I would have nipped around in a year or even ducked through the canal (I might still do that) and be back at my desk

the aim of my journey is to learn a bit about my own country and about myself

I am a hack so I am bound to do a bit of hackery along the way

I am bound to write/blog/film it and that gives anyone and everyone perfect right to pass comment on my actions




you are all correct

most certainly a reliable inboard is superior in every way to an outboard

some people think that a reliable inboard can be obtained for the same price and with the same amount of effort as a reliable outboard

all I can say is that this is not my experience

I have been pointed to all sorts of engines and options - and bless you for that

however, the way I see it, a reliable inboard is way out of my financial reach... it really is chaps

so an outboard it has to be

my experiences with a well have been great

at the moment I have three options

1/ do a Dame Ellen and duck through the canal in Katie L and make some lovely films about the caledonian canal

2/ do the bit around the top in Katie L - but be prepared to do a lot of sitting crouched down below in Scottish harbours waiting for weather systems to blow through

3/get a better sea boat with full standing headroom for the roughest and wettest parts of the journey and spend some time exploring one of the finest sailing areas in the UK - the Orkneys.... hopefully with my architect son aboard



I am surprised at the reaction of some sailors to the idea of dragging an unused old Centaur out from the back of a yard, running a pressure washer over it, removing a seized engine and using an outboard to get in and out of harbours


people make a lot of assumptions that unless my comfort/safety requirements/finacial committment to sailing are in perfect alignment with their own then I must be a screw loose

To my mind easily the most dangerous part of the project is driving a 150,000 mile old Polo the length and breadth of the country

second is riding the bike

I am far more likely to be killed by a Beamer or Audi than I am by a wave


consider also for a second how happy I will make some people if I fail

thy utter joy they will get from typing "I told you so" will add to the sum of human happiness

all those hours and thousands of pounds they have spent on their inboards will be completely vindicated

However, if I can get the right boat for the right price, put my discounted Tohatsu long shaft in it and sail it around the top of our little island then I will have had an adenture and be happy that I have seen some stuff I would otherwise have missed

and all the people who have been relentlessly negative will either keep quiet and shift onto dissing some-one or something else

or just tell me that I am lucky to be alive

I have to say that over the six years of sailing around the UK a lot of people have told me not to do stuff

too dangerous or it will never work

sometimes they are right

perhaps they will be right on the well in a Centaur

nothing ventured nothing gained

Dylan
 
Storyline said:
36' Westerly ... Storyline
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Totally off topic here, but what model is she? Was she ever owned by a scout group in some capacity? The reason I ask is she may be the first yacht I ever sailed on. A 36' Westerly (I think it might have been a Corsair) called Storyline which I did 10 days on from Falmouth to Southampton. She'd been taking part in some of the legs of the Tall Ships race I believe.

I got so seasick. :D
 
Dont even think about going through the canal. If I can sail an E-Boat in the very North of Scotland, you could take Katie round very easily indeed! You'll be very glad you did go all the way round. In fact, do Orkney and Shetland as well. Theres loads of wiggly bits that you'd love, especially in Shetland.

I think your being a wee bit over-cautious about the equipment needs for sailing over the top. I would gladly sail through the Pentland Firth onboard with you to prove its easy if you like!
Nothing to it at all.

Have fun, and worry less my good man....
 
josephmoore said:
Totally off topic here, but what model is she? Was she ever owned by a scout group in some capacity? The reason I ask is she may be the first yacht I ever sailed on. A 36' Westerly (I think it might have been a Corsair) called Storyline which I did 10 days on from Falmouth to Southampton. She'd been taking part in some of the legs of the Tall Ships race I believe.

I got so seasick. :D
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Yes, that is her. I have put together a Facebook page - sorry you were seasick but if you have any old photos or memories you could share please feel free to put it on the page ..... ( I would love some old photos of her).
https://www.facebook.com/YachtStoryline
 
Even Chance said:
.....

I think your being a wee bit over-cautious about the equipment needs for sailing over the top. I would gladly sail through the Pentland Firth onboard with you to prove its easy if you like!
Nothing to it at all.

Have fun, and worry less my good man....
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It is one of my life's ambitions to sail through the Merry Men of Mey (with a following wind with tide!) edit : also with a nice reliable powerful inboard just in case :)
 
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Storyline said:
Yes, that is her. I have put together a Facebook page - sorry you were seasick but if you have any old photos or memories you could share please feel free to put it on the page ..... ( I would love some old photos of her).
https://www.facebook.com/YachtStoryline
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In fairness, the weather was quite horrific - we went out of Falmouth, beat into a gale for a while, got scared and seasick and made it back into St Mawes. First time out, being on a big yacht and not being able to see out over the crests (by quite a long way) when you were in the troughs was quite an experience. Still on the whole I had a great time. Will check out the FB page! :)
 
dylanwinter said:
I am surprised at the reaction of some sailors to the idea of dragging an unused old Centaur out from the back of a yard, running a pressure washer over it, removing a seized engine and using an outboard to get in and out of harbours
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Have you ever actually looked over the old boats that you reckon you can get for two thousand quid Dylan? I am starting to think that you are just deliberately trolling to generate publicity.
 
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