To re-engine or not.... and if so when? Opiniions please

[Laurin]

Last year we bought a Contest 32.... the smallest boat we thought it was feasible for our family of 4 to take off in. So far we're pretty pleased. A little compromise on performance, and wheel steering rather than the tiller we'd like, but she's a tardis of a boat for our small family and sails better than we had hoped. However with a baby and toddler on board we haven't really got to know her as well as we'd have liked.

We have a vague plan that in 6 or 7 years time when our now 1 and 3 year old are old enough to appreciate, it we may take off for a couple of years. Depending on if you talk to HWMBO or myself there is between about 30% and 70% chance of this happenining.

We always felt that if we were to take off in her we would replace the engine..... it's a volvo penta MD17C, 30 years old and we are told that it is very hard/impossible to find some spares. (regular service items fine). She was significantly under budget so there is money in the pot to do this. To add to the mix, the gas water heater installation has been condemed so we now have no hot water. (Don't think a calorifier on the raw water cooled 30 year old volvo would work too well).

So we put her in the water this year and she was overheating. Checked thermostat, impeller, raw water in, and finally took off exhaust manifold and found a blockage in the water jacket. Unblocked it and hopefully when i put it back together next week it will be fixed. However it got us thinking..... if it's not fixed should we replace the engine now rather than throwing money at an engine we were probably going to replace anyway.....do we plan to replace it even if fixed, or are we crazy to think about replacing an engine that works, just because parts may be a bit tricky in the future if we have a breakdown?

Anybody got any thoughts?

 

[Simondjuk]

Went through this process when deciding whether or not to leave the BMW D7 in our boat.

The spares were hard to find and pricey when you did find them, a situation that was only destined to get worse. There was no doubt going to come a time when a part broke that was impossible to find. To guarantee a few years trouble free use, a complete rebuild on the D7 would really have been needed and this would have paid for a large chunk of a few year old Yanmar. The difference in cost between rebuild and replacement could almost be made up by selling the D7.

It was a no brainer - update for a very minor extra cost over the rebuild of an obsolete donk.

 

[chubby]

We replaced a 25 yr old merc , could have lasted a bit longer but heading towards a major refurb needing removal from the boat and costs were not that different between a new engine and replacing an old technology refurb, never looked back, quieter, more economical and reliable and peace of mind. replaced a 42 merc with a 42 hp vetus.

 

[Bru]

My view, for what its worth, is that if the boat is a keeper and you expect to re-engine at some point, sooner has to be better than later. You get maximum benefit from the new engine plus you don't risk losing faith in the boat due to successive engine related problems.

 

[Aeolus]

I agree with Brigantia. Just changed my 34 yr old MD7a with a 20hp Beta and only wish I had done so before spending almost £1000 over the past three years on trying to sort out the old engine.

Maybe if you can do your own engine repairs, it might be worth waiting until you are sure it's the right boat for you - if in a couple of years you decide that you need something a bit bigger for a family of four, a new engine will make the boat more saleable but you won't recover what you spent on it.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, if you intend to keep the boat, bite the bullet and replace it. You will find when you get your quotes there is little to choose between the prices/spec of the 4 main competitors, Beta, Nanni, Yanmar, Volvo. Choice comes down to which will fit best, has the best placed ancilliaries and can get the best package deal. Do not be tempted to try and salvage anything from your existing set up - you will need a new prop anyway and the rest of the stern gear and exhaust will be past it as well. Take the opportunity to install a calorifier while you are at it, and probably upgrade the electrics to take advantage of your greater charging capacity.

 

[Burnham Bob]

If you have the cash set aside, do it now. As previous posts have said, the pleasure of a new engine and knowing that its reliable, and won't let you down is great compared to the ongoing uncertainty.

And a new engine opens up several new posibilities - calorifier, extra charging with a different alternator........

And most likely under engine you'll have a quieter and smoother life.

 

[Elessar]

My view, for what its worth, is that if the boat is a keeper and you expect to re-engine at some point, sooner has to be better than later. You get maximum benefit from the new engine plus you don't risk losing faith in the boat due to successive engine related problems.

+1.

Contests are built very strong and heavy too so should last and make it a good investment.

 

[Laurin]

Thanks for replies..... guess we just need to make sure that she's a keeper now. Really hard to be 100% sure as our needs with a 1 and 3 year old may be different to when they grow. Also watching friends buy much bigger boats than ours to go cruising as a couple, makes us quesiton our sanity about 4 on a 32' boat. BUT she IS a tardis.

 

[ianj99]

If spares are problem and you don't have sufficient mechanical aptitude to overhaul and refit the engine installation youself, then a re engine is a good move, especially as the current ones are smoother, quieter and more efficient.

In my case, my 30year old Perkins 4108 with its ancient charging system, leaking seals and corroded exhaust manifold looked fit for the scrap heap especially as the previous owners had had starting and charging problems
So before spending money I took the cylinder head off to check for bore wear and cracks in the cylinder head. The bores showed little wear and the head barely in need of a decoke. I replaced the valves and springs, sent the injectors and pump away for overhaul and again, nothing other than a routine service was required.

So this pointed to the engine being sound and once I had replaced all the fuel system seals, replaced the Perkins heat exchangers and manifold with a Bowman combined one, replaced the engine mounts, upgraded the alternator and refitted all the electrics, I now have a first time starter with many years of service left.
Clearly none of this would have made economic sense if I'd had to pay someone to do all the work.

 

[Laurin]

If spares are problem and you don't have sufficient mechanical aptitude to overhaul and refit the engine installation youself,

Mechanical aptitude possibly, but with a 3 year old and 1 year old running around, and Grandparents 200 miles away so no easy babysitting service, our ability to do even the most basic maintenance on board is limited.

 

[Koeketiene]

Anybody got any thoughts?

If the Volvo's still running fine, I would keep it going till your plans to set off are more definite.
Once that decission has been taken, I would re-engine. And at least 12 to 18 months before you set off. That way, it will be fairly straightforward to have any warranty issues sorted.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for replies..... guess we just need to make sure that she's a keeper now. Really hard to be 100% sure as our needs with a 1 and 3 year old may be different to when they grow. Also watching friends buy much bigger boats than ours to go cruising as a couple, makes us quesiton our sanity about 4 on a 32' boat. BUT she IS a tardis.

You are right to question the size for a long term liveaboard for 4 with growing children, but others have been there before with even smaller boats - really depends on whether you can cope with a minimalist lifestyle. Economically there is a lot to be said for smaller boats - lower costs all round.

As to the engine replacement, the boat will need it at some time in the near future, so even if you soldier on with it the value will be depressed when you come to sell, or you may find it difficult to sell at all. Budget around £8k if you do it yourself, maybe another £1k if you get somebody else to do it. You will get some back from selling the old bits, but treat that as a bonus. Probably better to sell the old engine while it is still running in the boat.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

You are right to question the size for a long term liveaboard for 4 with growing children, but others have been there before with even smaller boats - really depends on whether you can cope with a minimalist lifestyle. Economically there is a lot to be said for smaller boats - lower costs all round.

As to the engine replacement, the boat will need it at some time in the near future, so even if you soldier on with it the value will be depressed when you come to sell, or you may find it difficult to sell at all. Budget around £8k if you do it yourself, maybe another £1k if you get somebody else to do it. You will get some back from selling the old bits, but treat that as a bonus. Probably better to sell the old engine while it is still running in the boat.

The other side of that coin is that in the 60's, a 27' Halcyon was regarded as a comfortable, fairly up-market family cruising yacht; few mass market yachts were much bigger in those days. My Moody 31 now seems absolutely palatial with only two up!

Main thing I recall from those days is that the essential thing is a separate sleeping cabin for the kids (my brother and I in those days!)

 

[Laurin]

The other side of that coin is that in the 60's, a 27' Halcyon was regarded as a comfortable, fairly up-market family cruising yacht; few mass market yachts were much bigger in those days. My Moody 31 now seems absolutely palatial with only two up!

Main thing I recall from those days is that the essential thing is a separate sleeping cabin for the kids (my brother and I in those days!)

The kids have our aft cabin, which has a small double and a single berth. Not as good as a cabin each but I thought longer term some curtains up at each would give at least a little privacy. Just leaves H and I a little cramped in the forepeak but it's doable. Saloon berths are wide when seat backs are taken away so if we get really fed up with the forepeak we have other options.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, but times have moved on and you can get viable 35-40 footers for relatively not a lot of money (less than a Halcyon 27 was new and not a lot more than your current Moody). For example there is Westerly Conway with all the work already done here in Poole that can be had for around £35k, and another one not quite so up to speed last year went for £26k. Once you have experienced the extra space, difficult to go back.

It is not just the sleeping space but storage for a family of 4. once you start provisioning for longer periods on board it is the lack of storage space as well as privacy which becomes an issue.

 

[Laurin]

Yes, but times have moved on and you can get viable 35-40 footers for relatively not a lot of money (less than a Halcyon 27 was new and not a lot more than your current Moody). For example there is Westerly Conway with all the work already done here in Poole that can be had for around £35k, and another one not quite so up to speed last year went for £26k. Once you have experienced the extra space, difficult to go back.

It is not just the sleeping space but storage for a family of 4. once you start provisioning for longer periods on board it is the lack of storage space as well as privacy which becomes an issue.

I guess this is the reason for hesitating with the engine replacement. We are not 100% sure it is big enough.... but so far so good. We have a LOT of storage space for the size of boat. We wanted small to keep berthing and running costs low. Also to keep loads low so hopefully kids can start getting involved in sailing the boat earlier. Our ketch rig also helps here. Sailed on a bigger boat with teenage kids on board and couldn't help noticing that in anything but light airs they didn't have the strength to trim the sails.

Suppose it might be a good idea to find some people who have actually lived aboard with kids to come and take a look round. See what they think about the practicallities.

 

[Tranona]

A regular poster here jonic (John Rodriguez) has sailed with his wife for several years, having children on the way. His wife, Nicola has just written a book about their experiences. They are featured in an article in the April 2012 YM.

The subject of liveaboard with children comes up regularly in the Liveaboard forum. Worth doing a search.

While it is useful reading about others' experiences and talking to them you will quickly find that there is no one best way and people tend to gravitate towards what seems to suit them. So you will find at one end of the spectrum intrepid families that sail long distances in boats as small as a Contessa 26 and at the other a regular who lives in the Caribbean with his family on an Ocean 60! However, you will find the "mean" is a modernish 35-40 footer, often centre cockpit. Not just because they are the "best" but because there are a lot of them about, although probably being replaced by more modern aft cockpit boats with lots of cabins such as ex charter boats. Lots to consider.

 

[GrahamM376]

Parts are still available for the MD11/17 engines but are expensive so if major part failure, that's the time to replace. If you want hot water, Martec do a fresh water cooling conversion kit for the MD series, I fitted one on an 11C some years ago but, is it now worth the cost? I don't think so.

As others have said, if the engine is OK now, don't replace until future plans are known as you may well decide that a larger boat is needed as the kids grow.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Yes, but times have moved on and you can get viable 35-40 footers for relatively not a lot of money (less than a Halcyon 27 was new and not a lot more than your current Moody). For example there is Westerly Conway with all the work already done here in Poole that can be had for around £35k, and another one not quite so up to speed last year went for £26k. Once you have experienced the extra space, difficult to go back.

It is not just the sleeping space but storage for a family of 4. once you start provisioning for longer periods on board it is the lack of storage space as well as privacy which becomes an issue.

My Moody 31 has, if anything, LESS storage space than the Halcyon did. Aft cabins and modern accommodation plans tend to fill all those useful odd corners on more traditional designs. So, for example, I have one cockpit locker - the Halcyon has two. I have a shallow bodied, wide hull - much less space under the berths, as the Halcyon is a traditional long keel deep bodied design. I have a water tank - I lose the space under one berth. Of course I gain in some ways; a cold locker was a distant hope on the Halcyon, and the galley space is far superior on the Moody! Don't get me wrong - I wouldn't swap; the Moody fits what I need and what I expect in terms of comfort these days. What I am saying is that standards have changed for all sorts of reasons. Water tanks weren't usual in those days, because it was rare to tie up alongside at a place where you could fill the tank - portable water containers were more practical. But if my Dad's Halcyon had been on the market when I was looking, it would have been a hard call, for sentimental reasons - and she is a nice little yacht.

BTW, I didn't mean a cabin each for the children - until they get old enough to notice and worry about the difference (if of opposite sexes) then they can share. I was thinking that a cabin separate from the adults was essential, though!