Tiller pilot options

[[70521]]

Dream on.
Most boats can be sailed upwind Ok , but once the direction is off the wind they become more & more directionally unstable. People seem to think that constant tweaking is self steering. It is not. The boat either steers, or it does not. One only has to look at the amount of movement a small boat needs in the tiller to realise how unbalanced many are & how easily they fall off course.
One can play about with bungee, backed sails etc. until the cows come home, but wave motion & wind strength is never the same for more than a few minutes.
I would hasten to add that a 23 ft boat is quite a lot different to a 28 ft one regards balance

Our interpretation of what the OP stated is different. The OP said he was in light winds and under motor. How would the boat become unbalanced when the sails are not powering the boat?

 

[Wandering Star]

Forgive me, I made my other reply before seeing this one.

The stroke length of PC Nautic's actuators is entirely the choice of PC Nautic - they are available in various lengths, strokes and reduction ratios, and are available with the potentiometer in the same length as without (not sure how long Wx Hongba have been offering this option though). The one with the potentiometer has a slightly larger body. I have no idea why PC Nautic chose to make theirs longer, but I think they're stocking more than one size - the longer one for their PyPilot system and another the "correct" length, to replace the Raymarine Q047.

The manufacturer of these actuators is the Wuxi Hongba Mechanical Electrical Equipment Co. Ltd, Wuxi being a city on the Yangtze river delta, in the same densely-populated region as Nanjing, Changzhou, and Shanghai.

These actuators are about $50 each from the factory, minimum order 8, so after shipping, VAT and import duty you're looking at a fraction over £100 each if you can arrange a group buy. I really hope a British chandlery will take this up, as these actuators are as at least as good as Raymarine's, if not better, and a fraction of the price.

I have several of these available to buyers in the EU.

I am currently writing a knowledge dump of everything I know about them, currently at about 3500 words, which I will post in due course.

However, this doesn't really help OP as the actuators are no good without a control head. I like Raymarine's SmartPilot / Evo.

You actually have a batch of these? Are you selling as individual units? I’d be very interested in buying one?

 

[HughClayton]

Have you tried calibrating the ST2000? Press “Standby” button for 1 sec, “cal” is displayed and then slowly motor around in a circle (at slack water). Typically takes one and half or two revolutions for the Pilot to calibrate.

I’d have thought than an ST2000 would have been ideal for this size of boat.

If you want a higher spec solution the Raymarine EV100 is a great bit of kit.

I have both on my boat and upgraded because the ST2000 wasn’t quite powerful enough.

enjoy the IoS

 

[vyv_cox]

Our interpretation of what the OP stated is different. The OP said he was in light winds and under motor. How would the boat become unbalanced when the sails are not powering the boat?

On my Sadler 34 I have a very handy tiller extension (named a Friend) whose handle can be locked into a fitting on the coaming. Its length is infinitely adjustable, so it can be set to steer the boat while doing things away from the helm such as bringing in fenders. However, its absolute limit is a few hundred yards, after which it will be anything up to 20 degrees off course. There is no way it will continue on a set course for longer.

 

[KompetentKrew]

You actually have a batch of these? Are you selling as individual units? I’d be very interested in buying one?

I'm presently in the EU - because of customs, VAT and import duties, I'm offering them to European buyers first. I'm not trying to make any money out of this, so I'd rather not ship to the UK if I can help it.

My full effortpost should be complete, and posted in its own thread, in another week or two - I would prefer to keep further discussion in that thread, if you're able to wait, as I've probably already answered your questions in my essay. It will explain how to contact Wuxi Hongba and the exact specification of the "Pelagic" actuators, so organising a group buy (or just buying 8 for resale) should be relatively straightforward - nearly as easy as ordering from me and dealing with shipping, VAT and customs duties from the EU.

Wuxi Hongba ship via Federal Express (not cheap), so they arrive within a couple of days - the biggest obstacle is dealing with the language barrier and making sure you've specified the actuators correctly.

I think these are brilliant actuators, and have crossed Biscay with mine, which replaced the Q047 for my Raymarine SmartPilot. It copes easily with 30+ knots of wind on my boat. If you could get 3 or 4 people together to from the cash then they're easily cheap enough that everyone can carry a spare, too.

For the impatient: Unboxing and testing on YouTube

 

[woodstock]

I’ve got one of the PCNautic rams paired with a B&G NAC-2 autopilot computer which then talks to my chart plotter - it’s brilliant! Very happy with the performance, it can steer to apparent wind beautifully upwind and seems able to
Cope with quartering seas as well.

 

[Daydream believer]

If you want a higher spec solution the Raymarine EV100 is a great bit of kit.

In the world of autopilots it is probably the most dangerous piece of kit known to man.

 

[KevinV]

In the world of autopilots it is probably the most dangerous piece of kit known to man.

Care to elucidate for those of us less acquainted with the world of autopilots?

 

[Daydream believer]

Care to elucidate for those of us less acquainted with the world of autopilots?

When on a beam reach in 25 knts with a quartering sea the boat doing 6 kts plus the autopilot will not react quickly enough to stop the boat broaching. When being hand steered the helmsman can anticipate the wave motion & correct the helm & hold a near perfect course. The autopilot will not. The 9 rate compass ccu etc does not help. Claims about how good it is is a falicy.

A big wave comes , the boat accelerates to 7 +kts, the boat broaches 70 degrees off course then the autopilot cuts out & gives a small bleep ( this bleep is the same as just about every other bleep on the boat so may not be recognised). The autopilot no longer straightens the helm. The sailor may well be below & not aware. The boat now has the tiller hard to windward & the boat now starts to turn to leaward on the back of the wave. It then carries right round until it crash gybes to the other tack & comes round into the wind where the boat may do a 360 (if the mainsheet has hooked on a winch or something, thus sheeting the main in) & repeat the process, or just stop. Assuming it has not been dismasted
In 25 kts one will already be down to 2 reefs & there is little one can do to balance sails . This is particularly so with a self tacking jib, whether one has a barber hauler fitted or the jib furled, or whatever.
This has happened to me numerous times & Raymarine are aware of the issue, but have done nothing about it. of the AV100 I have burned out 1 ram & one control unit on my 31 ft yacht now.
The ST 2000s will steer a very erratic course but does not cut out. Problem is that they burn out after a short while.
The Simrad TP32s is better & lasted much longer
My aeries steers all over the place but always brings the boat back but one cannot get too close to a downwind course as it will crash gybe for sure. It is less effective in lighter wind but then one may be able to use the autopilot provided one keeps an eye on it.
But in any event, it is safer than the AV100 which has this dangerous fault.
I do not consider my boat heavy helmed, but I cannot leave the tiller for even a second as it is so directionally unstable so I need a good autopilot as I sail SH 95% of the time. Sail balance is a no no & believe me I have tried.

 

[onesea]

70 degrees off course then the autopilot cuts out & gives a small bleep

That is not something you want from an auto pilot. I have used the end stops on my auto pilot and used sail balance to abuse the abilities of my tiller pilot.
I don’t know if I have got to 70 degree’s but then my tiller pilot kept trying…

 

[Minchsailor]

I'm presently in the EU - because of customs, VAT and import duties, I'm offering them to European buyers first. I'm not trying to make any money out of this, so I'd rather not ship to the UK if I can help it.

My full effortpost should be complete, and posted in its own thread, in another week or two - I would prefer to keep further discussion in that thread, if you're able to wait, as I've probably already answered your questions in my essay. It will explain how to contact Wuxi Hongba and the exact specification of the "Pelagic" actuators, so organising a group buy (or just buying 8 for resale) should be relatively straightforward - nearly as easy as ordering from me and dealing with shipping, VAT and customs duties from the EU.

Wuxi Hongba ship via Federal Express (not cheap), so they arrive within a couple of days - the biggest obstacle is dealing with the language barrier and making sure you've specified the actuators correctly.

I think these are brilliant actuators, and have crossed Biscay with mine, which replaced the Q047 for my Raymarine SmartPilot. It copes easily with 30+ knots of wind on my boat. If you could get 3 or 4 people together to from the cash then they're easily cheap enough that everyone can carry a spare, too.

For the impatient: Unboxing and testing on YouTube

I would be interested in one as well.

 

[Refueler]

After motoring and helming for 13 hours to the Scillies due to absence of any real wind, whilst not wishing to repeat the exercise im keen to explore options. Of course, ow we are here there is a lovely breeze I would have longed for earlier.

We have an st2000 on our little 23 foot pegasus 700 which is generally fine except when motoring, it’s too close to the outboard and it just doesn’t know which way to go. I’ve considered removing the electronics from it and mounting them elsewhere so the unit just has the drive ram.

Any idea their ideas?

OK ...

Have you considered swapping side the Tillerpilot is on ? Adding extension to the ram arm to move TP body further away from OB ? Unless OB is directly under tiller on centreline.

Tillerpilots can be set to work either side - to allow for magnetic interference on one side .... you can add extension to the arm to move body further away ..

Of course these two options in your case means re-siting the mount and possibly the power point. As well as determining the Key presses to set the TP direction.

As to anothers suggestion of lashing tiller and setting up sails etc. - why ? Leaving TP on stby effectively does that - but a 23ft Peg is not going to be a steady heading boat ... so its a non starter idea.

 

[Refueler]

That is not something you want from an auto pilot. I have used the end stops on my auto pilot and used sail balance to abuse the abilities of my tiller pilot.
I don’t know if I have got to 70 degree’s but then my tiller pilot kept trying…

Most TP's that I've used ... Simrad and Nautech / RM - default out when boat fails to respond after a time.... basically then needing boat to be put back on heading ... start tracking again.

 

[Pye_End]

Have you considered swapping side the Tillerpilot is on ?

Exactly.

 

[chris-s]

Thanks for all the replies.

In response to some of the suggestions it’s mounted right out on the coaming with an extension so about as far away as it can get. We held it in place on the other side but just by looking at the eratic compass readings you can see it is no better.

I’ve looked at adding a remote flux gate compass but it needs another instrument in between to get the compass data onto a seatalk network. Might be an option with a little more investigation.

We have a piece of line which we use to tie the tiller off but it only works for a short while and doesn’t take much to upset things.

I might also look to see if I can find someone local with a simrad to borrow and try.

Ultimately the sensors are just too close to the outboard. Under sail then it is pretty good tho I wouldn’t rely on it in heavier downwind conditions, it’s just not fast enough

 

[HughClayton]

thanks for sharing; seems your experience with an EV100 has been different from mine. I’ve had nothing but stellar experience from mine. But I wait in trepidation for the gremlins to awake!

Hugh

When on a beam reach in 25 knts with a quartering sea the boat doing 6 kts plus the autopilot will not react quickly enough to stop the boat broaching. When being hand steered the helmsman can anticipate the wave motion & correct the helm & hold a near perfect course. The autopilot will not. The 9 rate compass ccu etc does not help. Claims about how good it is is a falicy.

A big wave comes , the boat accelerates to 7 +kts, the boat broaches 70 degrees off course then the autopilot cuts out & gives a small bleep ( this bleep is the same as just about every other bleep on the boat so may not be recognised). The autopilot no longer straightens the helm. The sailor may well be below & not aware. The boat now has the tiller hard to windward & the boat now starts to turn to leaward on the back of the wave. It then carries right round until it crash gybes to the other tack & comes round into the wind where the boat may do a 360 (if the mainsheet has hooked on a winch or something, thus sheeting the main in) & repeat the process, or just stop. Assuming it has not been dismasted
In 25 kts one will already be down to 2 reefs & there is little one can do to balance sails . This is particularly so with a self tacking jib, whether one has a barber hauler fitted or the jib furled, or whatever.
This has happened to me numerous times & Raymarine are aware of the issue, but have done nothing about it. of the AV100 I have burned out 1 ram & one control unit on my 31 ft yacht now.
The ST 2000s will steer a very erratic course but does not cut out. Problem is that they burn out after a short while.
The Simrad TP32s is better & lasted much longer
My aeries steers all over the place but always brings the boat back but one cannot get too close to a downwind course as it will crash gybe for sure. It is less effective in lighter wind but then one may be able to use the autopilot provided one keeps an eye on it.
But in any event, it is safer than the AV100 which has this dangerous fault.
I do not consider my boat heavy helmed, but I cannot leave the tiller for even a second as it is so directionally unstable so I need a good autopilot as I sail SH 95% of the time. Sail balance is a no no & believe me I have tried.

 

[Refueler]

Thanks for all the replies.

In response to some of the suggestions it’s mounted right out on the coaming with an extension so about as far away as it can get. We held it in place on the other side but just by looking at the eratic compass readings you can see it is no better.

I’ve looked at adding a remote flux gate compass but it needs another instrument in between to get the compass data onto a seatalk network. Might be an option with a little more investigation.

We have a piece of line which we use to tie the tiller off but it only works for a short while and doesn’t take much to upset things.

I might also look to see if I can find someone local with a simrad to borrow and try.

Ultimately the sensors are just too close to the outboard. Under sail then it is pretty good tho I wouldn’t rely on it in heavier downwind conditions, it’s just not fast enough

I cannot help feeling something else is playing here ........ normally a compass will deflect under influence of nearby magnetic source. But unless its particularly strong - the change of 'heading' should still work. The TP is not working on compass heading - but on change of heading .... it does not care E - W - N - S or actual degrees point ... it cares about the number of degrees the heading changes ...

mmmmm interesting. Because over the years - the odd mishap of placing metal objects next to TP or the boats compass ... I've only seen the TP lose ability when the magnetic source is significantly strong ... and very close.

OK - how to counter ? If the amount of magnetics causing the TP to fail is so high - then no amount of soft iron or correctors can negate the error. So a means of electronically correcting ?

Do you have a GPS plotter that outputs steering NMEA or Seatalk ? It may not be a full ideal answer - but may help ... Question is - will the Plotter over-ride the TP's compass when monitoring the boats track ?

Not so sure about the later ST TP's .... but I know with my older Nautech fore-runner of the ST's ... I can actually remove the TP's compass and create a mount for it remotely .,.. just means DIY a mount ... extend the connection wires to the board ......
Guy I knew back some years ago - did that with his 1000 (same as I have) ... the 'compass' lead had a plug / socket so he could mount / unmount the TP as needed. Why did he do that ? Prior to the ST series - the Nautech TP's did not accept NMEA or Seatalk ... they only accepted from a very difficult to get setup Z unit. In fact I don't know anyone who managed to get one working !!

Just 'thinking out loud' as they say ... at least its an ST model which gives you a chance to sort !

 

[fredrussell]

I haven’t read the whole thread, but has the OP calibrated the TP? That feature is there to ‘cancel out’ erroneous compass readings from ferrous metal objects nearby. It’s in the manual, straightforward process.

 

[onesea]

I cannot help feeling something else is playing here ........ normally a compass will deflect under influence of nearby magnetic source. But unless its particularly strong - the change of 'heading' should still work. The TP is not working on compass heading - but on change of heading .... it does not care E - W - N - S or actual degrees point ... it cares about the number of degrees the heading changes ...

mmmmm interesting. Because over the years - the odd mishap of placing metal objects next to TP or the boats compass ... I've only seen the TP lose ability when the magnetic source is significantly strong ... and very close.

OK - how to counter ? If the amount of magnetics causing the TP to fail is so high - then no amount of soft iron or correctors can negate the error. So a means of electronically correcting ?

Do you have a GPS plotter that outputs steering NMEA or Seatalk ? It may not be a full ideal answer - but may help ... Question is - will the Plotter over-ride the TP's compass when monitoring the boats track ?

Not so sure about the later ST TP's .... but I know with my older Nautech fore-runner of the ST's ... I can actually remove the TP's compass and create a mount for it remotely .,.. just means DIY a mount ... extend the connection wires to the board ......
Guy I knew back some years ago - did that with his 1000 (same as I have) ... the 'compass' lead had a plug / socket so he could mount / unmount the TP as needed. Why did he do that ? Prior to the ST series - the Nautech TP's did not accept NMEA or Seatalk ... they only accepted from a very difficult to get setup Z unit. In fact I don't know anyone who managed to get one working !!

Just 'thinking out loud' as they say ... at least its an ST model which gives you a chance to sort !

Might sound simple but install magnet sensor app on phone see if you can isolate cause? Also check outboard wiring for shorts or faults if only when running.

 

[Refueler]

Might sound simple but install magnet sensor app on phone see if you can isolate cause? Also check outboard wiring for shorts or faults if only when running.

You've triggered a thought ......

Chris-s : Does your Outboard provide charge to your boat batterys / systems ? Does it supply AC power which is then rectified somewhere else on the boat ? instead of inside OB cowl ? If you charge boat systems from OB ... suggest try with charge lead disconnected ..... that lead / rectifier can be the cause ...