BruceK
Well-Known Member
I've been relegated to a Dingy 
However should my fortunes change and I get a "big" boat I shall heed the advice
However should my fortunes change and I get a "big" boat I shall heed the advice
Tie up your boat - MBY video
- Thread starter EricJ
- Start date
ari
Well-Known Member
I think you're missing the point.
If the locking turn has pulled so tight that it needs cutting off, then that may well be a result of 'not using the cleat properly' (and I wouldn't argue with that) but it's very clearly the case that the locking turn has saved the boat if it's undergone that much pressure - without it the warp would have just eventually pulled free.
However, if the cleat is 'used properly', ie the locking turn hasn't been subject to any pressure, then it's never (ever!) going to be a problem to undo.
So a locking turn is clearly 'best practice' because it's a win/win. In a worst case scenario (poorly secured warp) it's possible it would save the boat, and in a best case (that it's unnecessary because it undergoes no strain) then it's never going to be a problem.
In over thirty years of using locking turns I've never ever had the slightest issue undoing them, and it neatly and effectively secures the tail of the warp.
It's an obvious and eminently sensible way to finish.
Blue Sunray
Well-Known Member
That certainly sounds logically considered rather than dogmatic.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Exactly the same argument could be used by those who put a turn around the cleat to finish it off.
I’ve never had one come undone or fail. As I’ve said before, you can choose, but I note that many experienced seamen join me in choosing not to use locking turns.
BruceK
Well-Known Member
Nobody has said your way was wrong, or that it is even easier. What I find so delightful is none can give a credible explanation as to why it's the only way and that all else is "devils work". To be a little bit contentious the two in juxtaposition just smacks of ignorance by means of learning by wrote and delivered with all the piety and self confidence such ignorance brings. Nothing personal here, it's just something that seems more prevalent in the boating world than the norm.
ari
Well-Known Member
jfm
Well-Known Member
Precisely. That is a perfect analysis. If the lock goes turn jams then you really needed it and praise the lord that it jammed and you had to cut it.
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jfm
Well-Known Member
Again, that is a perfect analysis. Clearly correct. A locking turn is best practice. Those who understand things from first principles can see that; those that just say something is right because another guy told them it was right without being able to offer a first principles reason might suggest otherwise.. In this thread no one has stated a cogent reason for not using a locking turn.
jfm
Well-Known Member
+1 :encouragement:
jfm
Well-Known Member
I definitely read it properly. I spotted that you hadn't actually failed anyone. That's why I said "theoretically". You introduced the concept of this being relevant to pass/fail and I commented on that. But "theoretically".
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Before you lot get too smug and start making (false) claims about best practice I’ll offer you this.
You tie up and use 088 and make off. The weather is foul and like a good seaman you periodically check your lines. You find that the 088 hasn’t been enough to prevent slippage; you need to add a couple of more 8’s to the cleat and start to double up. How you made off now becomes important. An 0880 can ALWAYS be undone but occasionally a locking turn can’t.
99 times or more out of 100 you’ll get away with a locking turn. It seems so easy and obvious. However a turn around the bottom of the clear is just as secure and can always be undone (the turn sometimes jambs hard underneath but you’ve got a whole tail of line to pull on to extract it) so it’s never a problem. If you don’t think a turn round the bottom of the cleat is secure, then try it sometime.
As I’ve said before, I might have over egged my argument when I said locking turns are the work of the devil, but please don’t pretend they’re the end of the discussion and ‘best practice.’ After all if the locking turn is saving you, you’re using the wrong sort of mooring lines or you’re not using the cleat properly.
You tie up and use 088 and make off. The weather is foul and like a good seaman you periodically check your lines. You find that the 088 hasn’t been enough to prevent slippage; you need to add a couple of more 8’s to the cleat and start to double up. How you made off now becomes important. An 0880 can ALWAYS be undone but occasionally a locking turn can’t.
99 times or more out of 100 you’ll get away with a locking turn. It seems so easy and obvious. However a turn around the bottom of the clear is just as secure and can always be undone (the turn sometimes jambs hard underneath but you’ve got a whole tail of line to pull on to extract it) so it’s never a problem. If you don’t think a turn round the bottom of the cleat is secure, then try it sometime.
As I’ve said before, I might have over egged my argument when I said locking turns are the work of the devil, but please don’t pretend they’re the end of the discussion and ‘best practice.’ After all if the locking turn is saving you, you’re using the wrong sort of mooring lines or you’re not using the cleat properly.
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pan
Well-Known Member
Always use a final locking turn on my boats, never had one jam (as long as a full turn round cleat to start) in over 40 years, but I have had to re-do a stern cleat on a 'sally' moored next to me who hadn't used a final locking turn, and had slipped through! Frankly it's my boat and my decision how I want to tie it off.... whatever anyone thinks, I like piece of mind, I cannot understand why anyone would leave an end loose 
jfm
Well-Known Member
John as I see it you are not grasping the logic here. See posts above by Ari, Sorabain et al. If the locking turn jams you needed it. If it doesnt jam then the one single downside you cite (being jamming) doesn't occur. Ergo locking turn is better than not. The logic, and the flaw in your argument, is crystal clear imho.
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Murv
Well-Known Member
If it's only an issue with large boats, maybe that's why I've had no problems. We're around 11 tons and I've never had the locking turn tighten.
The main reason that I couldn't walk away from the boat without a locking turn is that I can't accept the risk that my last line of defence could be removed, or loosened, merely by the act of someone accidentally kicking the coiled end of the line as they passed.
Unless I'm missing something of course, which is entirely possible!
The main reason that I couldn't walk away from the boat without a locking turn is that I can't accept the risk that my last line of defence could be removed, or loosened, merely by the act of someone accidentally kicking the coiled end of the line as they passed.
Unless I'm missing something of course, which is entirely possible!
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Theory and practice sometimes end up divergent.
I get the classroom lesson.
But for what ever reason *if it does lock ,a big boat , a big rope in a tight cleat - and it’s holding the job up - jammed then that’s a problem .
From the “ if it can happen in the field it will happen “ school of hard knocks .
* It’s not the reason that John s discussion is about .
The none lock Vs just tightens up - if overloaded not necessarily unslips
The lock Vs can jam if overloaded after eventually over a period of cyclical strain on the turns below if they stretch.
Stretch requires two ends pulling so eventually it’s possible despite how many turns are below the top lock gets it so to speak .
Not a problem with smaller low weight boats and a deckie with fingers like walls sausages
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Precisely
Blue Sunray
Well-Known Member
Fine, fair enough.
So, remind me again why it's in any way an issue?
:encouragement:
Blue Sunray
Well-Known Member
The fact that it is considered relevant to mentioned at all in reference to an RYA assessment does rather reinforce the view that some at least of the examiners have dubious priorities in what they looking at, and forming a view on the basis of, even if not passing/failing on that specific point. It does nothing to dispel the impression of amateur and amateurish system that appears, as has been said by someone else on here before, to be a run by old men for old men.
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Bouba
Well-Known Member
There seems to be people who put the value of their ropes above the value of their boat. And if they end up on the rocks it’s because of a lack of seamanship and therefore deserved.
If i went to school where i was taught oxxo and i didn’t use it then i fail, fair enough. But if you are failing experienced boaters because of something that only you can justify then there is a clear case of injustice
If i went to school where i was taught oxxo and i didn’t use it then i fail, fair enough. But if you are failing experienced boaters because of something that only you can justify then there is a clear case of injustice
East Cardinal
Well-Known Member
Use of locking turns is a personal choice. If you are of the opinion they are useful in your situation then use one.
The problem that John Morris alludes to on larger vessels happens when the ropes get wet/dry out the locking turn can become fast. Very difficult to remove.
Then there are steel wire ropes in use for springs. A locking turn in this rope is very difficult to undo especially when mooring ropes need to be adjusted for tides.
Smaller boats with smaller diameter ropes are easier to handle and a locking turn easier to undo.
I don't use locking turns but they are not poor seamanship, merely a dfferent method of securing.
The problem that John Morris alludes to on larger vessels happens when the ropes get wet/dry out the locking turn can become fast. Very difficult to remove.
Then there are steel wire ropes in use for springs. A locking turn in this rope is very difficult to undo especially when mooring ropes need to be adjusted for tides.
Smaller boats with smaller diameter ropes are easier to handle and a locking turn easier to undo.
I don't use locking turns but they are not poor seamanship, merely a dfferent method of securing.