Tie up your boat - MBY video

[jfm]

You can try and find anywhere where someone has said ‘because I said so’ while you’re at it.

The answer is throughout this thread including your posts. Locking turn has been described as work of devil, unseamanlike and so on, but with absolutely zero science or objective reasoning in the context of yachts and modern rope. Absolutely zero. That is tantamount to " because I say so".

The " find anywhere" challenge should be to find an objective justification for oxxo given in this thread.

 

[Rocksteadee]

The answer is throughout this thread including your posts. Locking turn has been described as work of devil, unseamanlike and so on, but with absolutely zero science or objective reasoning in the context of yachts and modern rope. Absolutely zero. That is tantamount to " because I say so".

The " find anywhere" challenge should be to find an objective justification for oxxo given in this thread.

Justification for not using a locking turn:

If there is a risk of the line freezing
Towing, it will jam
Using a slip spring, requiring quick release
Anything requiring an emergency release eg haliard
Big boats
Using natural fibre as it can shrink on
Never had oxxo let go
Don’t need peace of mind for belt braces and a bit of string

Ok a couple there not seen mentioned in this thread

 

[john_morris_uk]

The answer is throughout this thread including your posts. Locking turn has been described as work of devil, unseamanlike and so on, but with absolutely zero science or objective reasoning in the context of yachts and modern rope. Absolutely zero. That is tantamount to " because I say so".

The " find anywhere" challenge should be to find an objective justification for oxxo given in this thread.

There have been a couple of explanations but it appears that people have ignored them. There’s no law about the matter but I note that I’m not the only person (by a long way) to avoid locking turns on cleats on larger vessels.

Tantamount to doesn’t cut it when faced with such an accusation. It’s weasel words to try an explain away false allegations.

 

[AllanG]

I can't believe we've got 15 pages of people's opinions on 'how to tie up a boat the correct way'.........!!?? :sleeping::sleeping:

 

[Blue Sunray]

Justification for not using a locking turn:

If there is a risk of the line freezing
Towing, it will jam
Using a slip spring, requiring quick release
Anything requiring an emergency release eg haliard
Big boats
Using natural fibre as it can shrink on
Never had oxxo let go
Don’t need peace of mind for belt braces and a bit of string

Ok a couple there not seen mentioned in this thread

Nice list, how about you try to find a reason that is relevant to mooring a moderately sized motor boat?

 

[jfm]

Justification for not using a locking turn:

If there is a risk of the line freezing
Towing, it will jam
Using a slip spring, requiring quick release
Anything requiring an emergency release eg haliard
Big boats
Using natural fibre as it can shrink on
Never had oxxo let go
Don’t need peace of mind for belt braces and a bit of string

Ok a couple there not seen mentioned in this thread

but they're all special situations, whereas this thread is about use of oxxo in general, as the default, so to speak. Like when you leave your boat in marina for a week.
Btw, what is your definition broadly of "big"?

 

[jfm]

There have been a couple of explanations but it appears that people have ignored them. There’s no law about the matter but I note that I’m not the only person (by a long way) to avoid locking turns on cleats on larger vessels.

Tantamount to doesn’t cut it when faced with such an accusation. It’s weasel words to try an explain away false allegations.

I can't see the explanations other than special sits like need for fast getaway, but that's a different discussion from use of oxxo in general. No worries.

Sure, you're not the only person. But the large number of locking turners are also not the only person. Yet you call them unseamanlike. In contrast the lock turn side of this debate merely argues that lock turns are generally better on technical/mechanical grounds

Tantamount isn't a weasel word in the context in which I used it. I don't do weasel words. Not going to argue about it.

I said ages ago we have done this to death. I'm happy to agree to disagree but I'm not happy for lock turns to be recorded on here without pushback as unseamanlike, work of devil, etc and sometimes with waving of an "I'm an examiner" flag (and, just as driving instructor sure doesn't mean better driver, rya examiner sure doesn't mean better sailor )

Done to death surely?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Nice list, how about you try to find a reason that is relevant to mooring a moderately sized motor boat?

They all are more or less.

I also note that you haven’t tried to defend your cheap shot at either myself or the RYA.

The psychology of this thread is very interesting.

I mention how I don’t like locking turns on mooring lines and don’t believe they’re very good practice but wouldn’t ever fail someone in their YM Exam for such a trivial thing and it appears I touch a raw nerve on the egos of a few people who leap to justify their old habits.

It was the instructional video that first set the ball rolling but that seems to be forgotten.

I’ve already acknowledged how I was talking at cross purposes earlier and even apologised for my misunderstanding but it seems that there are some very precious egos involved in the discussion.

How to tie a boat up is a very worthwhile discussion, and like many aspects of seamanship there are few absolute rules. Some ways are best avoided whilst there are reasons why habitually doing things one way isn’t necessarily always the best way but it all depends on context and circumstances. The impression I get from some people in this thread is that the suggestion that the way they habitually tie up their pride and joy might not always be the best way touched a very raw nerve.

The result is not a very adult conversation from some.

 

[MapisM]

There have been a couple of explanations but it appears that people have ignored them.
There’s no law about the matter but I note that I’m not the only person (by a long way) to avoid locking turns on cleats on larger vessels.

Well, none of us with the opposite view are alone by a long way either.
And some of our explanations were elegantly ignored as well: in post #62, I even bothered to attach a pic of a cleat where I can assure you that with no locking turn the line doesn't hold - ever.
Besides, I already assured you that I never had ANY difficulties to release the line, in many years with the same boat.

Now, is that type of cleat the exception that confirms the rule?
Is a 35T 53 feet boat not large enough to fall in your "larger" category?
Whatever. To my simple mind, having seen the "no locking turn" regularly fail in one boat, why should I take the risk anywhere else?

Ships are a different story of course, and I even listed some reasons for NOT using locking turns on them, in the post I just mentioned.
But I can't remember anyone pretending that also the RN should use locking turns on the HMS QE...

 

[john_morris_uk]

I can't see the explanations other than special sits like need for fast getaway, but that's a different discussion from use of oxxo in general. No worries.

Sure, you're not the only person. But the large number of locking turners are also not the only person. Yet you call them unseamanlike. In contrast the lock turn side of this debate merely argues that lock turns are generally better on technical/mechanical grounds

Tantamount isn't a weasel word in the context in which I used it. I don't do weasel words. Not going to argue about it.

I said ages ago we have done this to death. I'm happy to agree to disagree but I'm not happy for lock turns to be recorded on here without pushback as unseamanlike, work of devil, etc and sometimes with waving of an "I'm an examiner" flag (and, just as driving instructor sure doesn't mean better driver, rya examiner sure doesn't mean better sailor )

Done to death surely?

We are getting close to agreement. I did acknowledge that I perhaps over egged my argument, but I also hope that those addicted to locking turns might realise that 0880 isn’t the work of the devil either and that there are good reasons for using it.

Hopefully anyone reading the thread will see both sides of the discussion and make a reasoned choice for using one or other. I very much hope that they will remember NOT to use a locking turn on the times it might get them into trouble.

 

[MapisM]

I mention how I don’t like locking turns on mooring lines

Ermm, nope. You wrote "0880 doesn’t slip" (your bold).
That's a bold statement, rather than a preference. And on top of being a bold statement, it's not always true, as it happens.

 

[jfm]

@ post 150: Yes, like when tying up the Queen Mary in the arctic circle in winter when you need a quick getaway . Only kidding. I agree your penultimate sentence. #Donetodeath

 

[benjenbav]

Big bollards. Locking turn.
https://youtu.be/A9psXoDzhXc
?

 

[MapisM]

Mmm... Not sure I'd suggest anyone to follow the example in that video, TBH.
Goes to prove that variety is the spice of life, I suppose...

 

[Bouba]

There are so many YouTube vids on tying up a boat. But this one is good because it explains how rope size and cleat size are matched. And maybe some of the controversy is in relation to the bigger dock cleats

 

[EricJ]

There are so many YouTube vids on tying up a boat. But this one is good because it explains how rope size and cleat size are matched. And maybe some of the controversy is in relation to the bigger dock cleats

Great video indeed. Especially the point of adding “0’s” around the base of the cleat when you need to secure a small diameter line to a large cleat.

 

[Portofino]

Indeed as said very early on the crux to 0XX0 working to perfection is the cleat / rope ratio so you can as said by JM wrap the final 0 low under the 8,s to secure .
While we are doing mooring and lines any thoughts in the type of cleat .
For me I prefer the bollard type ( RN miniature ) over the bar type .
With the twin bollard the two 8s sit right .
But with the bar they appear forced so I guess a lock IS needed .I can see why OXXO is not gonna work in this case , walking around the marina many other cleat / rope combos

https://imgur.com/a/ysNgqni

 

[Cheery]

Locking knot used here:

 

[john_morris_uk]

Locking knot used here:

If I was in super cynical mood I would go on about how I've seen the Gosport Ferry line handlers do that more slickly.

There should be a regulation against Youtube clips that have 'best ever' or 'must watch' in their title. The general rule (IMHO) is that it isn't and you needn't bother.

PS I guess a good line handler doesn't leave lines loafing around on the dock to trip people up. But it was only a show off clip so I guess he wasn't going leave it there.

 

[Bouba]

Perhaps we should all go to cleat school