Tie up your boat - MBY video

john_morris_uk said:
I’m all for choosing ones battles and I’m also not one for willy waving over years of experience. If people read the thread they’ll see I’m not ploughing a completely lonely furrow on my views.

I also know that yachting can produce some strong characters who don’t like their ingrained habits being questioned.

I certainly don’t think it’s a matter of winning or losing as most sensible people can see that things are not as cut and dried as some might claim. (Me included no doubt..)
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I don't think it has anything to do with ingrained habits, or willy waving ( are we allowed to say that - little sexist i feel ) and much to do with doing it right!

Our toys are left alone, often in foreign countries for months on end. You want to know the lines wont move. You lock them off. Have I ever had a line move? No. Has anyones else? Not that has been mentioned on here. Have I have lines chafe an snap - yes - different scenario. So can we conclude locking off works with as far as we know 100% success? Yes. Would we change on that basis ? No.


What on earth would you not lock a line off? The sole argument seem to be that it might be tricky to undo it. Personally I have never had that, but am most happy in the knowledge it wont move. There seem few supporters of the now famous 0XX0 , which apparently is not good enough to use on a shore based cleat in any event ( med marinas have bollards so I cant talk to this one).

It seems we must agree to differ with you, however I would back JFM in that would you want this technique to be passed to others joining boating? In my view no!
 
john_morris_uk said:
I also know that yachting can produce some strong characters who don’t like their ingrained habits being questioned.
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Fwiw, if I weren't willing to have my boating habits (ANY of them, whether already ingrained or not) questioned, I'd have abandoned the asylum long ago.
In fact, I can think of several of them which I changed, sometimes radically, based on suggestions received.
Valid suggestions, that is... :rolleyes: :p
 
MapisM said:
Fwiw, if I weren't willing to have my boating habits (ANY of them, whether already ingrained or not) questioned, I'd have abandoned the asylum long ago.
In fact, I can think of several of them which I changed, sometimes radically, based on suggestions received.
Valid suggestions, that is... :rolleyes: :p
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Teehee. :encouragement:
There remains one big challenge on here which is to persuade you to fit an AnCamTM . :D:D
I realise it may be a dead body job :D :D
 
jrudge said:
I have just fitted one. Very good !
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Give that some time, J.
I understood from another thread that even a jetrib fan as yourself is seeing the light and selling the thing.
You will come back to anchoring the way God intended, i.e. while standing at the bow and looking down (*), rather sooner than later... :p
Logging off now, must look for my coat! :cool:

(*) PS: coming to think of it, THAT is one ingrained habit of mine I'm rather proud of...…… :D :D :D
 
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MapisM said:
Give that some time, J.
I understood from another thread that even a jetrib fan as yourself is seeing the light and selling the thing.
You will come back to anchoring the way God intended, i.e. while standing at the bow and looking down (*), rather sooner than later... :p
Logging off now, must look for my coat! :cool:

(*) PS: coming to think of it, THAT is one ingrained habit of mine I'm rather proud of...…… :D :D :D
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God meant anchoring to be stress free !

Re the Williams. Love them. For reasons I won’t go into publicly I will shortly have two but I am not in complete control of when the second one arrives.
 
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Right.
The Navy way:
Never ever put a locking turn on. Historically with natural fibre rope when wet can shrink and jam on.
Larger ships can have been under load and will seize a locked turn.
Royal Marine way:
again no locking turn, when in Norway if line is wet and locked at even -15 will freeze solid
RYA way:
no locking turn as it is not needed.
My way:
never needed a locking turn, however may put one on if:
line is too short for oxxo;
line is too big for size of cleat;
Boat may be left for a good while;
Too many other lines on cleat;
There is a possibility the line may get kicked off.
Most of the above a locking turn would not be needed if better practice were used.

My best practice is:
Line fixed to boat, line passed around or through cleat and back to boat, then made off onboard. No lock required as my line on my cleat with no other lines.

Incidentally once had a skipper who always used a locking turn whilst I would not, he queried to the missus (not to me) “did I not know how to tie a line off correctly”. He would not say anything to me but if he had asked me to put a lock on every time I would have done as he was the skipper.
On 3 occasions his tender went adrift after being tied on by him, twice facing the Pacific, to which his only comment was that it needed more locking turns. With my zero lock turns it never drifted off.
 
Portofino made a comment that I agree with about setting up the lines to suit those less used to dealing with them, by disengaging the lock prior to departure, leaving the XXO configuration, temporarily.
Even if the reverse-locked synthetic line does jam due to unforeseen circumstances, by twisting the line firmly (in the direction of the lay in the case of three strand, and any direction with plaited) the length between your fist and the lock becomes rigid, then push back into the lock to release it.
 
Rocksteadee said:
Right.
The Navy way:
Never ever put a locking turn on. Historically with natural fibre rope when wet can shrink and jam on.
Larger ships can have been under load and will seize a locked turn.
Royal Marine way:
again no locking turn, when in Norway if line is wet and locked at even -15 will freeze solid
RYA way:
no locking turn as it is not needed.
My way:
never needed a locking turn, however may put one on if:
line is too short for oxxo;
line is too big for size of cleat;
Boat may be left for a good while;
Too many other lines on cleat;
There is a possibility the line may get kicked off.
Most of the above a locking turn would not be needed if better practice were used.

My best practice is:
Line fixed to boat, line passed around or through cleat and back to boat, then made off onboard. No lock required as my line on my cleat with no other lines.

Incidentally once had a skipper who always used a locking turn whilst I would not, he queried to the missus (not to me) “did I not know how to tie a line off correctly”. He would not say anything to me but if he had asked me to put a lock on every time I would have done as he was the skipper.
On 3 occasions his tender went adrift after being tied on by him, twice facing the Pacific, to which his only comment was that it needed more locking turns. With my zero lock turns it never drifted off.
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Fascinating, but any relevance the Booties in Norway or historic Naval cordage have to modern small(ish) boat handling is highly debatable.
 
Rocksteadee said:
On 3 occasions his tender went adrift after being tied on by him, twice facing the Pacific, to which his only comment was that it needed more locking turns. With my zero lock turns it never drifted off.
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How was the tender otherwise secured? One concern with locking turns is that people might think they are a shortcut/substitute for tying it off well in the first place, e.g. they might just do X-lock and not even bother with the first O.

Having a tender drift off three times without adaptation seems a bit strange.

With your method of "line passed around or through cleat and back to boat", do you not put any Os or Xs on the dock cleat? I can see why securing the line back on the boat is good (is my preference), but i've always put Os and Xs on the dock too, since I generally want the two lengths of the same line between boat and dock to "remain more or less constant", otherwise I might come back and find the boat askew (assuming it hasn't worked its way off the cleat entirely if it was simply passed around it as if to slip).

Funny how things like this are used as a proxy for general seamanship, when I expect there's no real correlation. I could teach my 2 year old to tie an OXXO, but she wont be bringing my boat alongside anytime soon.
 
sorabain said:
How was the tender otherwise secured? One concern with locking turns is that people might think they are a shortcut/substitute for tying it off well in the first place, e.g. they might just do X-lock and not even bother with the first O.

Having a tender drift off three times without adaptation seems a bit strange.

With your method of "line passed around or through cleat and back to boat", do you not put any Os or Xs on the dock cleat? I can see why securing the line back on the boat is good (is my preference), but i've always put Os and Xs on the dock too, since I generally want the two lengths of the same line between boat and dock to "remain more or less constant", otherwise I might come back and find the boat askew (assuming it hasn't worked its way off the cleat entirely if it was simply passed around it as if to slip).

Funny how things like this are used as a proxy for general seamanship, when I expect there's no real correlation. I could teach my 2 year old to tie an OXXO, but she wont be bringing my boat alongside anytime soon.
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I agree with your questions over the dinghy. Very strange. If it was tied off properly its not going to go walkies.

If you taught your daughter how to make of to a cleat with OXXO, you would have taught her a bit of seamanship. I'm not sure that boat handling is the same as seamanship. It might be a part of it, but seamanship is the whole business of looking after yourself, the boat and the way you use things and do things at sea...

On a separate matter:

I will put my head on the block again and openly admit to cringing when I see the number of boats tied up with a line just lead through a cleat and back to the boat. Since when was allowing a line to chafe in the middle 'good seamanship'. I know some people put lines on the cleat with some sort of concoction of O's and 8's and then bring the line back to the boat and make it off again. Its not my personal preference, but so what. Its the number of (mainly seen in the Med) boats that just loop it round and a little while later wonder why their lines have chafed through that bemuses me.
 
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john_morris_uk said:
Its the number of (mainly seen in the Med) boats that just loop it round and a little while later wonder why their lines have chafed through that bemuses me.
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I have no recollection of ever seeing a cleat in a med marina. They are all bollards in my experience, other than the single floating pontoon in Ciuttedella in Menorca which is an exception as once in a while the marina empties itself.

Med lines are usually either a spliced loop or a bow line over the bollard. They are sometimes looped back in preparation for leaving port, but most of the time asking a passer by or marinero to flick it off is simpler.
 
jrudge said:
I have no recollection of ever seeing a cleat in a med marina. They are all bollards in my experience, other than the single floating pontoon in Ciuttedella in Menorca which is an exception as once in a while the marina empties itself.

Med lines are usually either a spliced loop or a bow line over the bollard. They are sometimes looped back in preparation for leaving port, but most of the time asking a passer by or marinero to flick it off is simpler.
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We have UK style floating pontoons and cleats in SCM, which I think qualifies as being in the Med :).

Whilst I never just loop a line round the cleat and pass it back I am guilty of adding a few OO's, XX's.
 
petem said:
We have UK style floating pontoons and cleats in SCM, which I think qualifies as being in the Med :).

Whilst I never just loop a line round the cleat and pass it back I am guilty of adding a few OO's, XX's.
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If looping around a cleat is bad, but Os and Xs are also frowned upon, what is the "best practice"?

... i might be getting mixed up as I often end up making the stern line off then using it as a spring as in the vid. I guess some here are referring to out and back to the same point.
 
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petem said:
We have UK style floating pontoons and cleats in SCM, which I think qualifies as being in the Med :).

Whilst I never just loop a line round the cleat and pass it back I am guilty of adding a few OO's, XX's.
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And I gather they charge a premium for them which I don't really follow as med style mooring is so much simpler.

Ok so we have now found 2 marinas - St Carles and Cuitedella ( only only bit on the left) any more?
 
jrudge said:
And I gather they charge a premium for them which I don't really follow as med style mooring is so much simpler.

Ok so we have now found 2 marinas - St Carles and Cuitedella ( only only bit on the left) any more?
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Until I took my current position I was doing a lot of work in Palma & Barcelona in Spain, Antibes in France and Pisa, Livorno & Porto Stefano in Italy and their surrounding ports and marinas. I've had a quick check back over some photos but as far as I can see there are cleats and bollards in all those places. The bollards (understandably) tend to be in the larger berths. I've used both, but my criticism/cringing of those who simply loop round (bollard or cleat) and bring the line back to the boat still stands.
 
john_morris_uk said:
Until I took my current position I was doing a lot of work in Palma & Barcelona in Spain, Antibes in France and Pisa, Livorno & Porto Stefano in Italy and their surrounding ports and marinas. I've had a quick check back over some photos but as far as I can see there are cleats and bollards in all those places. The bollards (understandably) tend to be in the larger berths. I've used both, but my criticism/cringing of those who simply loop round (bollard or cleat) and bring the line back to the boat still stands.
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How else would you attach a line to a bollard other than per my post a spliced loop or a bowline ? I use chains in the winter so I suppose that is a third option.

You are not going to tie it on as each bollard tends to have a minimum of 4 lines on it - stern line and cross line and the same for your neighbour.
 
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