Thinking of buying an 11 year old yacht?

[Blueboatman]

All chums again, great..

Have to say the survey, tho funny, didn't take me in 'cos the elaborately engineered fitting and weakness described would not happen on a value engineered boat. Too fussy to build, see. Costly to make, those CO32s were, but then it was a time of 'Shape' first, build it light to win, then figure out the production process or how to build 'em a tad faster given their idiosyncrasies..( IIR the CO32 boat show model got a- for then- huge number of people signing up to get one built..and Rogers was ex wooden hands on man, so he was clever/happy to underbuild and then add strength as necessary..stringers n stuff. Responsive, eh?

Unfortunately one of my (and many ) peoples criticisms of modern production lines is the insistence on inner mouldings, grids and other tucked away stiffeners. An absolute bugger( sorry, challenge) to remedy after a grounding.. ..And before anyone asks, I have owned one , the American company Pearson were doing yacht value engineering, spray guns and huge production runs way before the Europeans. From 1963 I believe..Some would say that the Pearson brothers introduced, 'invented' fibreglass yachts as we know them....

And in defence of a UK company I much admire, 11 years old..would that be when Rogers was just starting to ramp up production again, having gone very quiet, and trying to recruit 'real' tradesmen? or -perhaps worse- maybe the survey was one fitted together as a set of mouldings by A N Other bloke outfit? Just for balance , like...

 

[awol]

So now we have a thread where a Bavaria owner has after a little research, found that a much beloved plastic classic (nice looking boat) is far from perfect itself in build. Latterly, two other posters have highlighted two other MAB's which had many more keel problems than any Bavaria model has ever had.

I reckon if the MAB contingency cant take a bit of a joke, they shouldnt take the 'P' so much themselves.

I think there is at least one subtle difference. MAB owners love their boats warts and all and are well aware of their shortcomings (or "idiosyncrasies" as I prefer to view them) - e.g. BAV34's list of checks is openly on the CO32 Owners Assoc. website. On the other hand AWB owners (at least a couple of Bav yins) are almost evangelical in defence of their chosen one.

1. JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[bitbaltic]

It of course, bought out the usual suspects, vitriol and all. God knows why.

Because you constructed your post in an oblique way which was designed to get a rise out of people who disagree with (and probably don't like) you. That's taunting. Your reasoning is that they have taunted you. That's not very relevant. Your opinion is also that the post was funny. That's also a separate issue- unless you honestly thought offering an opponent in an open forum a fifty grand bet was hilarious too. In which case, your choice of boat is likely to be the least of your worries in life.

If people think that you've come well out of those posts (clearly some do) then they've probably put too much of their own pride into the opinions they express, and allegiances they make, on an Internet forum.

Cheers

 

[1bobt]

I think there is at least one subtle difference. MAB owners love their boats warts and all and are well aware of their shortcomings (or "idiosyncrasies" as I prefer to view them) - e.g. BAV34's list of checks is openly on the CO32 Owners Assoc. website. On the other hand AWB owners (at least a couple of Bav yins) are almost evangelical in defence of their chosen one.

1. JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

This tread started as a great wind up its a pity that it deteriated to this

 

[Grumpybear]

This tread started as a great wind up its a pity that it deteriated to this

+1. AWOL's comment about owners (with his caveats) could equally well be reversed and still be valid.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Costly to make, those CO32s were

I doubt the figures are available, but I wonder how much of the cost of building a CO32 goes into "quality" and how much is swallowed up in the extra costs of small volume production.

Apparently you can buy a new Contessa 32 for £146,000 + VAT.
Apparently you can buy a new Bavaria 32 for EUR56,000 + VAT.

(I'm sure those prices are utterly unrepresentative of what you'd actually pay to walk away with a sailable boat but lets stick with them for the purpose of the example.)

Does the extra 100k for the CO32 really all go into hull integrity?

I wonder how much more Jeremy Rogers have to pay for a Volvo-Penta engine; brand name Sails, Spars & Winches over the prices Bavaria can negotiate for such things? Jeremy Rogers have to fork out a few grand for lead alone.

I know it won't exist but I've love to see a break down of what the extra money is actually paying for.

Given the heat of these debates I feel I should point out I have a lot of affection for CO32's and the various similar designs (I also a lot of affection for Bav 32's and similar designs).

One more point: Westerleys *are* AWBs. They were in the vangaurd of AWBs. (Most forumites will be aware of Chay Blythe's Westerly 30...)

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Because you constructed your post in an oblique way which was designed to get a rise out of people who disagree with (and probably don't like) you. That's taunting.

It wasn't taunting. It made a fair point in an amusing way with specific detail.

It had me going to the last line, I bet I'm not alone.

 

[Houleaux]

I'm off back to read the threads about little MAB sailing on a budget.

You might enjoy this then: http://www.sailinginlimbo.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/about-limbo.html Friends of mine in a Samphire 26 with a link to their Yellowbrick site (top right of page) which shows them currently en route to Barbados from the Cape Verdes. Oh, and they're being followed by a couple in a Sadler 25 (see http://my.yb.tl/redsadler25amorosa#) who are escorting a (smaller) inshore fishing boat made in - and sailied from - Bangladesh (see www.whereistaratari.blogspot.com)!

Who cares what you sail? Surely it's the pleasure you get from sailing - whatever you sail - that counts!

 

[bitbaltic]

You might enjoy this then: http://www.sailinginlimbo.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/about-limbo.html Friends of mine in a Samphire 26 with a link to their Yellowbrick site (top right of page) which shows them currently en route to Barbados from the Cape Verdes. Oh, and they're being followed by a couple in a Sadler 25 (see http://my.yb.tl/redsadler25amorosa#) who are escorting a (smaller) inshore fishing boat made in - and sailied from - Bangladesh (see www.whereistaratari.blogspot.com)!

Who cares what you sail? Surely it's the pleasure you get from sailing - whatever you sail - that counts!

+1. My view exactly. I have plenty of pals who own boats I wouldn't choose, but far more pals who would give their eye teeth to own any boat at all and enjoy it without slagging the choices of others. That's the context of my engagement on this thread. It is about people forgetting the privilege of ownership and using the fishpond of a forum to vent their worst character. Without ybw I'm sure bav34 and AWOL would happily raft up and share a bottle.

 

[Salty John]

The OP was quite amusing - it had me going for a bit!

But, just as making rich people poor doesn't make poor people rich, slagging off the Contessa doesn't make the Bav a better boat. The Bav can stand on its own merits and the Contessa can do the same.

 

[awol]

This tread started as a great wind up its a pity that it deteriated to this

Deteriorated to biblical quotations? Surely that raised the tone. And as Grumpybear points out can apply to either (or both) sides of any judgemental claptrap. To make it clear - I'm not sure whether it's a mote or a beam in my eye, but there is certainly something in there!

 

[Lucky Duck]

I was reading a copy of PBO a couple of months back and I recall two stories, one about an owner who sailed his boat into the breakwater at Plymouth and another about someone who had got caught out in bad weather while crossing the North Sea. What both had in common was the authors both felt it necessary to make dissmissive comparisons to "lesser boats" so it seems that the urge to 'slag' off other boats it quite strong in some people.

 

[Blueboatman]

I doubt the figures are available, but I wonder how much of the cost of building a CO32 goes into "quality" and how much is swallowed up in the extra costs of small volume production.

Apparently you can buy a new Contessa 32 for £146,000 + VAT.
Apparently you can buy a new Bavaria 32 for EUR56,000 + VAT.

(I'm sure those prices are utterly unrepresentative of what you'd actually pay to walk away with a sailable boat but lets stick with them for the purpose of the example.)

Does the extra 100k for the CO32 really all go into hull integrity?

I wonder how much more Jeremy Rogers have to pay for a Volvo-Penta engine; brand name Sails, Spars & Winches over the prices Bavaria can negotiate for such things? Jeremy Rogers have to fork out a few grand for lead alone.

I know it won't exist but I've love to see a break down of what the extra money is actually paying for.

Given the heat of these debates I feel I should point out I have a lot of affection for CO32's and the various similar designs (I also a lot of affection for Bav 32's and similar designs).

One more point: Westerleys *are* AWBs. They were in the vangaurd of AWBs. (Most forumites will be aware of Chay Blythe's Westerly 30...)

Yup.
Bavaria have designed for mass production. Manufacturing ease is a priority. Retro engineering the production process to a CO32 would be quite a challenge, don't you think?
Surely the question would be, ask Bavaria to quote to make a CO32, different kettle of teak. Possibly

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Deteriorated to biblical quotations? Surely that raised the tone. And as Grumpybear points out can apply to either (or both) sides of any judgemental claptrap. To make it clear - I'm not sure whether it's a mote or a beam in my eye, but there is certainly something in there!

Sorry pal.It was a wind up, a bit of fun, a laugh thats all!

And I don`t own a Bavaria just an old Jenn. Would love one of those new cruisers 55

 

[Sans Bateau]

And to illustrate my previous post, more toys go out of the pram.

I think there is at least one subtle difference. MAB owners love their boats warts and all and are well aware of their shortcomings (or "idiosyncrasies" as I prefer to view them) - e.g. BAV34's list of checks is openly on the CO32 Owners Assoc. website. On the other hand AWB owners (at least a couple of Bav yins) are almost evangelical in defence of their chosen one.

1. JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

And MAB owners are not evangelical? Pot - Kettle - black - call - the

 

[jordanbasset]

Sorry pal.It was a wind up, a bit of fun, a laugh thats all!

And I don`t own a Bavaria just an old Jenn. Would love one of those new cruisers 55

Agree, really can't understand what people are getting so uptight about

 

[Georgio]

I doubt the figures are available, but I wonder how much of the cost of building a CO32 goes into "quality" and how much is swallowed up in the extra costs of small volume production.

Apparently you can buy a new Contessa 32 for £146,000 + VAT.
Apparently you can buy a new Bavaria 32 for EUR56,000 + VAT.

(I'm sure those prices are utterly unrepresentative of what you'd actually pay to walk away with a sailable boat but lets stick with them for the purpose of the example.)

Does the extra 100k for the CO32 really all go into hull integrity?

I wonder how much more Jeremy Rogers have to pay for a Volvo-Penta engine; brand name Sails, Spars & Winches over the prices Bavaria can negotiate for such things? Jeremy Rogers have to fork out a few grand for lead alone.

I know it won't exist but I've love to see a break down of what the extra money is actually paying for.

Given the heat of these debates I feel I should point out I have a lot of affection for CO32's and the various similar designs (I also a lot of affection for Bav 32's and similar designs).

I imagine it is the same argument for boats like the Rustler 36, not many built, all built to order by hand. It’s a bit of a Morgan V's Mondeo comparrison as they both do basically the same job but one is a lot more special than the other. Some of the additional cost is bound to be as a result of the small production numbers (no economies of scale) but much of it is also down to the number of man-hours that go into the build. My boat is in the Rogers yard just now, sitting next to a brand new 32 that is being finished off for delivery in the spring, these boats are not built by robots on a production line and I'm sure the same would be the case if you look at a Ruster 36 being built in Plymouth (for circa £200K).

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I imagine it is the same argument for boats like the Rustler 36, not many built, all built to order by hand. It’s a bit of a Morgan V's Mondeo comparrison as they both do basically the same job but one is a lot more special than the other. Some of the additional cost is bound to be as a result of the small production numbers (no economies of scale) but much of it is also down to the number of man-hours that go into the build. My boat is in the Rogers yard just now, sitting next to a brand new 32 that is being finished off for delivery in the spring, these boats are not built by robots on a production line and I'm sure the same would be the case if you look at a Ruster 36 being built in Plymouth (for circa £200K).

I really don't know why man-hours is equated to quality. I know from my experience of the auto-industry, if it's going to get messed up during the build process, it'll be a human, not a robot that does it.