THICK FOG - A Question of Saymanship

[arran]

Exiting Chichester Harbour for Langston on Saturday at 1700 (ETA 1900) we hit fog. Leaving at HW-0.5 in light winds presented no problems in Chichester and we’d reach Langston at HW +1.5 so no problems there either. Voyage would be in shallow water out of the way of larger vessels. We have a seaworthy 26ft yacht with charts, life jackets, flares, VHF etc and if required a GPS. I considered the voyage would not endanger the boat or crew. As we approached to leave Chichester Harbour another skipper shouted ‘THICK FOG’ and pointed out to sea. At this both crew became nervous and suggested we stopped in Chichester Harbour which we did. This raises two important questions 1. When should we volunteer advice to other skippers and crew? 2. When should a skipper be influenced by how crew react to such advice? Any views would be interesting to hear.



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[tcm]

Not a great sign if somebody shouting from the quayside overturns your plans. If you had radar and engine working, you could continue. Likewise if the harbourmaster shouts "ooer the water is quite cold and deep!" But if you didn't know that there was was fog, and had no radar anyway, then the hm recognised as much and callling was correct. Do you have radar?

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[jimi]

IMHO the other skipper was behaving in a responsible seamanlike fashion in giving you useful information, its up to you what you do with it. As a skipper you're responsible for ensuring the safety of your crew, if they still felt unsafe after you had explained the plan and factors involved, then you did the right thing staying put.

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[arran]

The other skipper was returning from the THICK FOG and we don't have radar.

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[bedouin]

(1) I think it is correct for someone to volunteer information that they may consider to be important navigational/safety information if they believe you might not know it - there is a huge difference between volunteering info "There's thick fog out there" and an opinion ("It's not safe to proceed").

(2) While the skipper has sole responsibility for the safety of the boat - keeping the crew happy is an important aspect of being skipper. In most conditions I would not continue with a reluctant crew, even if I knew the journey to be safe.

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[tcm]

Tis an excellent idea to get radar - otherwise you are confined to praying for clear daylight weather, or praying for advice from otherws at the right moment, or (when unexpected fog hits you) just praying.

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[Twister_Ken]

If you felt confident/competent to make thejourney, then you could well have continued.

But IMHO there's no joy in sailing in really poor viz, so unless you had a pressing reason to want to be in Langstone it might be better for everybody to stay put, put the kettle and the radio on, and get out the travel Scrabble.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[claymore]

could you say that again - I didn't quite catch it the first two times

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Claymore
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[webcraft]

I don't believe seting sail in fog without radar is always foolhardy - although obviously it can be on some occasions.

Usually it is a calculated risk - as are all passages to a greater or lesser degree. If you are going to be out of all known shipping lanes and the main thrust of coastal traffic, have GPS (pref. with a backup set) , post a good lookout (with agreed signals/procedures in the event of a sighting) , make the requisite sound signals and have a radar reflector then I think the risk is acceptable. Wearing lifejackets and having the dinghy partially inflated can add to your survival chances should you be very unlucky.

Advice as to conditions beyond your immediate horizon is always welcome, although the source has to be considered carefully. I remember setting off from Grimsby at 2am one morning just as a huge TSMV gin palace moored up, the skipper telling me that he'd spent several hours trying to round Flamborough Head with no success and that conditions were horrendous. (Wind/sea, not fog). My crew - one older but inexperienced owner - became nervous, but I pointed out that we could poke our noses out of the Humber and come back if he didn't like it, so we went - and had no problem in a 23ft Colvic Watson - not even slightly worrying - but then we didn't have wife, kid and all those gin bottles crashing around in the sideboard!

My point is - if you think it is safe, do it - but make sure your judgement has some basis in fact and takes account of the opinions of others. Your level of acceptable risk is not other peoples' however, and there will always be people who criticise you as foolhardy. When these begin to be the majority then perhaps it is time for a reassessment of your judgement.

Maybe YBW should run polls - I'm sure the forum software has the capability.

Is it unsafe to sail in fog without radar?

Yes
Sometimes but not always
No

(Or something along those lines).

- Nick

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[Moose]

Don't you mean the first 3 times/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

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Moose

 

[NigeCh]

Last Wednesday night out of Makkum to Tollesbury on a Contessa 26 we hit fog some 30 miles out just as we were about to cross the shipping lanes (not TSS's - but mighty busy) The crew (me) suggested to the Skipper that without radar, no liferaft and no EPIRB that a safer option bearing in mind the 2 collisions noted elsewhere on this BB, that it would be more prudent to head back to the coast and make for Ijmuiden Marina and hold up there till the weather improved.

At the harbour entrance at dawn the fog cleared revealing a wall to wall sunshine day with a brisk south westerly ... So we hung a right ...

If we had had even a small radar set we would have continued out into and through the shipping lanes. It's odd that radar is assumed to be a power gobbler for small boats and that diesels on say 1200 rpm should not be used to power the radar and keep the single battery charged.

Times change ... I'm going to gradually raid SWMBO's housekeeping money box and buy a small radar - IMO, radar is NOW a necessity on even the smallest of cruising boats which venture beyond the horizon. Why? Because it's like the difference between chocolates and sweets. Once you've tasted chocolates ie radar then it's a compliment to GPS and becomes a necessary part of the electronic navaid kit - The sweets are a 2B pencil, a rubber, a hand bearing compass and paper charts.

The downside is that a single battery cruiser has to find room for more batteries and a means of charging them. [Note: An average Contessa 26 has a single 85 AH battery = Max charge via alternator = 75% charged. Min charge to start the engine = 50% ... Therefore the AHs available to run all the navaids and the radar is only 22 AH ]





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[sailbadthesinner]

Re: A radar lesson.

Saturday coming out of north channel from Yarmouth en route past pool. Cannot remember bearing to studlan but it was about 260. Fog came in and viz went down to about half a mile.

not too many boats about at that time but later we saw awful lot of stuff comeing in and out of poole. We had radar with us and kept a good look out. We could identify stuff on the radar and could look in that direction to see what it was. It made us more prepared and maybe as important that little bit calmer. And cool heads make better judgements. We had flares and jackets and life rafts too. But the radar was more comfort than all those put together.

But in fog you are guessing /praying without radar. There may be no boats out there there maybe 10 all heading for you. Without radar you have precious little warning. Radar does not keep you safe but it is a bloody useful tool. most people whom i have come across who retro fitted radar, did so after getting caught in a shipping lane in the fog.

You say it is a claculated risk. But to what extent? You may not be in shipping lanes and it may not be a normally busy area. But if you set off in thick fog you are basically praying nothing hits you. that is not sailing that is gambling.

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[longjohnsilver]

Radar reflector

You say that if you have this as well as various other bits of kit then it's probably safe to continue. Sorry, must disagree with this, what if you happen to bump into someone else who thinks exactly the same, radar reflectors are only of use if all nearby vessels have radars.

I'm suer that many of us have been caught out in fog without radar, not a pleasnt experience. To set off knowing there's thick fog and not having radar is imho pretty foolish.

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[Peppermint]

Re: THICK FOG a clash of qualifications

is no pleasure to sail in. Though it is like other "poor weather" often the source of a satisfying passage in retrospect. Leaving that aside I still avoid setting sail in it particularly in busy shipping lanes.

Part of the YM course deals with contour following as a tactic. It's very effective provided you come up with a tidal height adjustment you can trust you will amaze yourself and your crew with your skill and accuracy.

It raises one point though. With Yachtmasters being churned out like sausages these contours are likely to be the scene of some congestion and interesting clash's

I would suggest that the cost benefit ratio or the Amp hr. calculation or the hoisting more Kg's up the mast calculation make radar on boats under 32ft a bit of a luxury. It depends what type of sailing you do.

I'm also less than enamoured by the many small ship radars I've used.

When I bought my first 4 X 4 an genuine expert told me that all that going through anything stuff is rubbish "this vehicle will just get you further into nowhere before you get stuck". he said. I think that radar for small yachts offers the same
false dawn. It's the one you won't see that'll get you.

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[brianhumber]

1. Perfectly correct to advise others of Nav hazards.
2. Radar will help but is not the final solution, as somebody else has said it could get you deeper in the s--- than you would be otherwise.
3. If my crew had voiced concerns I would have stopped, briefed them of the voyage, what was going happen, when and where and then carried on using the contours. As you have said Chi to Lang is ok for an exprienced skipper even in Fog. Any further trouble from the crew and they become ex crew QED.

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[NigeCh]

Re: A radar lesson - I\'ll go one worse

Last August heading west sailing down the Les Casquets TSS in the dead of night (stars out) it was only because we had radar that we were able to use Ch 16 on 25 watts and ask an unlit container ship coming rapidly up our bum why she was steaming unlit !!!! Without radar I doubt if I would be posting now .... When she switched her lights on we had to get out of her way PDQ even though we were sailing on a starboard tack .... Her wash as she passed at 20+ knots was even more nasty as it sucked us back into her .... That's why I now add bicycle clips to the safety gear.

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[graham]

Re: A radar lesson - I\'ll go one worse

Getting caught out in fog is one thing.If close to home the GPS becomes worth its weight in gold.Otherwise my policy is to get into the shallowest water I can float in and safely anchor.

If neither the above options are available to you I would suggest calling any local Ports to ask what they have coming or going and advise them of your position/intentions.Also It could be wise to advise HMCG of your position /intentions.

I would be carefull how you word any message to HMCG as they may misinterpret it as a call for assistance.

As for deliberately setting out in thick fog .For me without radar that would never be an option.With radar only if absolutely neccessary.

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[webcraft]

Re: Radar reflector

Longjohjn,

I did not say 'it is probably safe to continue' - I said it is a calculated risk, as is every passage. The ability to perform the calculation and the acceptability of the risk thus calculated will of necessity vary enormously between skippers.

I probably wouldn't dare poke my noise out into the Solent or channel in thick fog without radar . . . I don't know the South Coast, I just now it is incredibly busy. I have however met perfectly sane people who have been round the Mull of Kintyre following the 20m contour in thick fog, and would do this myself. You are definitely not going to meet any shipping this close in (you can almost touch the cliffs in places . . . ) and as it is a tidal gate it is essentially a one way system, so another faster yacht ramming you from astern is about the worst you have to fear.

(Of course, if it's chucking out time from the new pub on Sanda Island it might be another story . . .)

Insisting that radar is essential equipment is, as I have said before, the route to more legislation, putting the whole sport out of a lot of peoples' reach. I agree with Peppermint, radar on boats under 30ft is not necessarily a good idea, for lots of reasons.

- Nick

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[graham]

Re:

I heard a story about someone who I wont name on here .They were taking part in a yacht race when near Lundy Island dense fog drifted in.

Suddenly the boat went hard aground on rock.With the crew all on one rail one man climbed down the bow onto the rock up to his waist in water and pushed.

He managed to slide the undamaged boat back off the Rocky shelf but it then drifted completely out of sight before the crew regained control.

He was then stood on a rock surrounded by water and strong tides and had completely lost his voice from shouting by the time they found him again.

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[tcm]

yes, this is more the thrust of this question - perhaps it isn't a fog/radar question but a crew question.

Two crew on board plus skiper set out. Something happens and the crew say oh right well that's that we insist that this or that happens now.

Now, either the "skipper" is no such thing - it's his boat with two more experienced pals who call a halt cos the plonky skipper has already failed to brief them before setting off (with details of route, time, conditions, safety and so on) so if there some fog shouted across, well that's about that.

So, the answer should be perhaps that either the most suitable person aboard should be skipper (not always the owner) or the crew should have been warned that they can't walk ashore or stomp off, until reaching dry land, which was targeted to be in langstone, not "whenever they felt like it", and indeed then become ex-crew.



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