The worst Iraq spin yet

[Magic_Sailor]

I put Iraq in the subject so you wouldn't need to read this if you didn't want to.

This is not a left wing rant. Far from it, I'm a bit of a wishy washy myself. However, the "up to date" information on Iraq, put forward by Tony Blair himself, turns out to have been written by a PhD student 12 years ago - lifted virtually verbatim - spelling and grammatical mistakes to boot.

It's not that it hasn't been reported but in all of the questions and answers given an important point seems to be missed or skirted round somehow. Namely that, surely, if they have been reduced to this, it must mean they haven't got anything to hang this possible war on. Further, that TB has actually lied.

I am so uncomfortable about all this. It would be easier if they just said "look, in order to guarantee your way of life we've got to ensure control of this energy source for the next 50 years". At least we'd know where we stand - when push comes to shove we might actually agree with that however disagreeable that position is.

Yours disillusionedly

Magic


<A target="_blank" HREF=http://hometown.aol.co.uk/geoffwestgarth/myhomepage/travelwriting.html>Click for website!</A>

 

[jimi]

Magic, I totally agree and I'm certainly not a lefty not only that but I do not have single friend or acqaintance who supports TB's stance on this and a couple of them are politically to the right of Genghis Khan. I am extremely uncomfortable about this and the state of democracy in this country. I have in fact written to my MP expressing my concerns .. the first time I have ever taken such a step.

If there were some sort of protest organised, I'd participate if I could ... how about yots against the war outside Marchwood next sat?

 

[Forbsie]

Not just a PhD student but one in America and Dubya is waving his hands saying "Nothing to do with me, Mate!"

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/forbsie?&page=1>My Project</A>

 

[steve_cronin]

A PhD Student.....

Isn't some spotty youth you know!!

But the spin put on it by the woolly liberals & the press would have you think so.

SADDAM NEEDS STOPPING. HE IS HELL BENT ON DESTROYING THE STATE OF ISRAEL FOR ONE! & if it IS about oil, well I for one believe that I don't want someone like him with their hands on a key resource of our economy. They were only goat-herders until we told them that they had oil under their sand and don't forget it! Just in case some "Friend(?) of the Earth" thinks we can exist without oil or put up with being robbed blind for it then they should think again! I'm too old to loose everything and retire in poverty in some idealistic greeny liberal airy fairy dreamland. We're capitalists like it or not so wise up! This smiling smart suited gook and other extremists are set at ending the western lifestyle as we know it. Have you noticed how it's mostly women who are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt? (if there were any!)

We are too comfortable in our western welfare societies. Every now and again men of good faith need to stand up and protect what they cherish.

Those transport vehicles with their attendant de-contam units and the man's history are proof enough for me.

Steve Cronin

 

[jonjo]

Re: Visit a newsgroup

There must be 10,000's of newsgroup users itching to debate this issue with you.

 

[Forbsie]

Re: A PhD Student.....

<Isn't some spotty youth you know!!>

I didn't know that PhD Students were automatically acne-free and old. Neither are they automatically to be believed just because they have the capability to attend a university. My point was that this thesis had been given to Blair by the American government who then denied all knowledge.

<SADDAM NEEDS STOPPING HE IS HELL BENT ON DESTROTING THE STATE OF ISRAEL!>

Sorry for not bursting into tears, but if Israel had complied with their own UN mandates and America had used their huge influence on that country in a more fair and constructive manner, we would most definitely not be in this position in the first place.

<Every now and again men of good faith need to stand up and protect what they cherish.>

This is where I absolutely agree with you. I cherish Veracity, Fairness, Honest and Open Government and I'll stand up to protect that!!



<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/forbsie?&page=1>My Project</A>

 

[kgi]

Re: A PhD Student.....

So he's got some de contam vehicles.....so what!!! just cos the US sez there de contam vehicles you take it for granted..if you listened to colin powell he said the iraqi's ASPIRE to a nuclear weapon they have two of the three components but without the third its useless....the vid of the mirage....big deal it was so blurred you couldn't tell what mark it was or see any markings on the plane, ....inconclusive....C P said they have defectors who say he has this stuff...well best he produces them in person at the UN so they can question them....the whole of CPs discourse was inconclusive, it was all we think, he may have, UNSCOM estimates etc its all to tenuos, and its like the german govt are saying, everyone has known this for ten years why the sudden urgency? and befor we have anymore pinko..green ..liberal...i spent eighteen years in the service of this country of ours.and proud of it...lets look past the propaganda, we are a naturally tolerant bunch of people on this island of ours, lets not jump just because the US sez so.........keith

 

[Johnjo]

I believe there is a lot more going on than we are being told,
possibly its all about oil, But i feel there is a lot more to it than that, what has happened to bring it all to a head now all of a sudden?
What ever happens Britain and America are going to get rid of Saddam no
matter what the United Nations say on the matter in my opinion.
If there is any threat to this country at all from weapons of mass destruction,
Then I feel we have to deal with it,
We now have North Korea shouting the odds, If we back down now, what kind of
a signal is this sending them and all the other tinpot countries around the
world! That the U.N is spineless and the europeans are to busy bickering
amongst themselves as always!
well thats my twopenneths worth,


mike

 

[Magic_Sailor]

See what I mean

There are points well made on both sides - but only one poster so far (3 hours after intial post) comes close to dealing with or acknowldgeing the most important point.

That is - It would appear that our elected leader has lied directly to us. What does that say about anything else that happens.

Magic

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://hometown.aol.co.uk/geoffwestgarth/myhomepage/travelwriting.html>Click for website!</A>

 

[jimi]

Re: See what I mean

Well I think that really was what the furore about the Blair flats really was about,if they lied over that why should we trust him about anything else, and I don't. Also interseting to note the Prime Ministers commitment on asylum seekers has turned into something different ..

 

[Ohdrat]

Re: A PhD Student.....

Yes but the article was current at the time of the last Gulf (Desert Storm) War... so it can hardly be accurate.

 

[Deleted member 478]

Re: Can\'t see much difference

Having been raised in South Africa, it's unnerving when I start noticing similarities between the previous South African regime and Downing St....

the propaganda/spin,
the lies,
the "stuff you, we'll do it anyway attitude",
the "you can't vote us out attitude",
the police state (SA's was more efficient and they did lock up thiefs)
the bureaucratic inefficiency,
the jobs for friends....

ARRGggghhhh and still, I try to remain apolitical

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stingo.co.uk>http://www.stingo.co.uk</A> - now showing at a computer near you

 

[Ohdrat]

Re: Can\'t see much difference

Quite agree.. this "briefing" can only be termed as a most dreadful piece of propaganda..

Thank heavens for the Germans and the French .. at the moment their opposition and alternative strategy is a very good reason to be part of Europe. Sometimes it is vital to have brakes and safety checks which the Franco German strategy is an excellent example.

 

[webcraft]

Re: See what I mean

Magic is absolutely right - the Care Blairs have been caught lying and not even had the decency to look mildly embarrassed. Wouldn't be so bad if it was some obvious right-wing maniac running the country, but Tony's main message to the electors is 'trust me, I'm an ordinary bloke, I'm nice and I think we should have a war, so therefore it must be necessary'

Does our Tone really have a good reason to kill a lot of innocent people he's never met, thumb his (our!) nose at the UN and alienate most of the world's Muslim community into the bargain? Or is it a last ditch attempt to prop up the stock market and keep a few banks and insurance companies solvent?

From a provincial political perspective up here in Scotland I think we could see a big shake-up in the government (oops, sorry, I mean Scottish Executive) at the May election. This war is not going to be popular before or during the fact, and I doubt if the aftermath will hold much joy either.

<font color=blue>Nick</font color=blue>
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com>

</A>

 

[Jacket]

Re: A PhD Student.....

<Isn't some spotty youth you know!!>

>I didn't know that PhD Students were automatically acne-free and old. Neither >are they automatically to be believed just because they have the capability to >attend a university.

No, but they will spend 12 hours a day, 6 days a week for three years studying one very specific topic, and by the end of that time they can usually be considered the leading expert in their particular small area. So anything the write is probably well worth listening to.

Also, something that the press seem to be missing is the point that although the thesis was written 12 years ago, it was only used to provide background material and a historical context, and was combined with much more recent material. But then that doesn't make such a good news story, does it?

 

[Bergman]

Re: A PhD Student.....

I don't think the issue is so much the quality or veracity of the students material. What is unforgivable is to present 12 year old material as up to date intelligence.

Even worse is to use that material as justification for action knowing that it is not what it purports to be.

I would love to know who doctored the material, was it politicians for political reasons, or was it intelligence services to produce something that politicians would like to hear.

If the latter, what up to date info is available, we are told lots of intelligence to support government case, but non being made public - maybe for good reason - maybe.

 

[Jacket]

Re: A PhD Student.....

Has any one read the full document? I've not, but was told that the PhD stuff isn't presented as up to date, just background stuff, as I said in my previous post. If thats true, it would seem to me that its just the press kicking Blair while he's down, inorder to sell more papers, rather than any real scandal.

 

[Guest]

Re: See what I mean

I've just spent four weeks in Malaysia which is 66% muslim, and felt pretty much embarassed at the stance of TB and GWB. I had to explain to most of the people that brought it up in conversation that I was just an ordinary guy and that I didn't naturally hate muslims.

I think the thing that most people miss on this, rightly or wrongly, is that the Muslims will see it as an attack on them and as webcraft pointed out, even if Saddam is a really bad guy, this doesn't necessarily point to the fact that all the innocent Iraqis that are going to die are really nasty people.

Whilst this may not appear to be a boaty issue - I'm currently planning my round the world cruise and having spent some time talking to people who have gone round the bottom of South Africa, would really rather prefer the Suez Canal as my route to the Far East.

Having sailed in waters around Malaysia and Indonesia, I can also confirm to all of those right wing. oil driven, Solent boaters that they really haven't a clue what sailing is all about. I didn't vote for the guy and if he messes up my chances of spending my fifties in a predominantly Muslim area I'll be really hacked off.

So yes, the issue should be debated on this forum


Mark Leuty

 

[jimi]

Re: A PhD Student.....

jacket, do'nt be an arse, this was presented as original material by the UK and credited as such by Colin Powell.

 

[hlb]

Re: See what I mean

Hmmm. All this. (Ihave not read every word) Just seems like a rerun of me driving through the Iron curtain (at the time) and down to Saudi, Kuwait, Iraq. 25 times in all. Plus alot of time down there.

They all have women. Building motorways, behind the Iron Curtain. They said. Well yes in a sence that's true. They all wore bikini's and lent on a rake and fornicating with any male within view. It's true. Terrible lot these Rusians!! Then there were the tales of Rusian subversion. We arrived there. Gun turets. Fifty feet up. Big concrete lumps to drive round. Gulp. Have you got any guns they said. Any Pornography. Are you a spy. No we said. Ok go and sit in the cafe and watch the crap Rusian TV. Thank you sir and gave us our papers back. How pleasant it was/ Driving round the IRON CURTAIN though HUNGARY, RUMANIA in 1976-8. We went that way round. Only cos it was less hastle than going through the so called. Western world. W Germany Austria ect. Dont let them fool you. Palastinians live in Palastine. Its not rocket science. Sort that out and we can all sleep at night.

<font color=blue> Haydn