The Truth About Sailing On The Algarve

[nortada]

Re: Guadiana bar update

It's also vehicles-only, so the boys in blue may show an interest. Then you'd have the intresting issue of reaching, or measuring to, the underside of the deck, which is concrete and decidedly overhanging.

Suppose one of our cleverer brethren (that rules me out) could resort to a sextant (on shore and a known distance from the bridge), to get a clearance height.

Not too sure how accurate it would be or how much trust I would put in the results:suspicion:

 

[capnsensible]

Re: Guadiana bar update

Friends of ours run an RYA sailing school in Ayamonte. Ive just sent them an email to ask if they know the air draft at HAT. I will let you know when I get a response.

 

[capnsensible]

Re: Guadiana bar update

Here you go. The air draft is 20.4 m at Highest Astronomical Tide.

Thanks to Shane.

:encouragement:

 

[Heckler]

Re: Guadiana bar update

I assume that's 18:00 Spanish time if 2 hours after LW. I think that should have made height about 1.8m. So it sounds as if it's 1& 2 dredged to around 3.2m above chart datum and 3&4 would be approx. 2.6 m. I'll check these figures when I'm not half asleep and put them with my other notes for Guadiana.

Always good to have time and date. I remember getting a few clearance heights for the bridge from people but none gave the date, time or depth when passing under. So no reference points.

Thanks for the detailed information even though it's 50:50 whether or not I head in that direction this year.

Just a smalll update, it was Portuguese time.
Stu

 

[macd]

Re: Guadiana bar update

Here you go. The air draft is 20.4 m at Highest Astronomical Tide.

Thanks to Shane.

:encouragement:

Thanks to you, and to Shane.
Seems Heikell wasn't far out, if a little less precise: he states 20.5 at "high water". Mind you, it's a fairly old pilot book so sea levels were lower then

 

[Mistroma]

Re: Guadiana bar update

Good to get more information, I'll add it to my notes. It looks as if I could get under at high water but would be even more nerve wracking than usual. My first trip under was "interesting" but after that I was happy that 19.8m was fine at 0.9m tide height. Good to know that I actually have a little more to spare but I think my nerve might give out trying to go under at HW springs. The nuts underneath hang down a fair bit so I tried to keep well clear of them.


I dug out all the information I had in my notes about the Guadiana International bridge. A bit tedious to read but might be of interest.

Navionics 18m

Following all quote 20m
International Database for Civil and Structural Engineering
Wikipedia
Algarve daily news

Pretty good chance that the Wikipedia and news simply repeat highly detailed information in first source
https://structurae.net/structures/guadiana-international-bridge

Problem is finding what all these sources use as their reference point for water level. Most common is MHWS or HAT as these are pretty safe but I'm certain that I read about Spanish bridges being quoted as height above mean sea level.

I had also read of a similar discrepancy in Rio Guadalquivir where chart said 16.6m but local sign said 19m. That seemed to be in line with the differences I'd spotted.

I think that I'd calculated mean sea level at around 2m above chart datum and HAT was about 3.5m but I don't have these figures to hand. Still, 1.5m difference is close to the 2m between chart height and civil eng. figures.

All of the above meant the my 19.8m air draft would just be OK when I went through with tide at 0.9m
Civil eng. figures would give 21m and chart data would give about 20.5m
It now looks as if I'd actually have about 2.5m to spare.

 

[Heckler]

Re: Guadiana bar update

I assume that's 18:00 Spanish time if 2 hours after LW. I think that should have made height about 1.8m. So it sounds as if it's 1& 2 dredged to around 3.2m above chart datum and 3&4 would be approx. 2.6 m. I'll check these figures when I'm not half asleep and put them with my other notes for Guadiana.

Always good to have time and date. I remember getting a few clearance heights for the bridge from people but none gave the date, time or depth when passing under. So no reference points.

Thanks for the detailed information even though it's 50:50 whether or not I head in that direction this year.

Also Ayamonte, loads of water at low tide at the entrance and inside now, came out with 4.5mtrs
S

 

[Mistroma]

Re: Guadiana bar update

Also Ayamonte, loads of water at low tide at the entrance and inside now, came out with 4.5mtrs
S

We asked in the office last time we were in the river and they said depth would be OK at the outermost fingers. I even saw a sketch with depths marked all over it. I wasn't convinced that the figures tied up exactly with what they were saying but it looked promising.

We went in at high water and it wasn't very deep. I gave up after motoring around a little bit as best depth I could get would have left us aground at LW by quite a bit.

So this is good news as I think that Ayamonte is a nicer place to stop. I don't think that they throw you out at noon. We stayed at Vila Real for 3 days after getting agreement that we could stay after noon if staying a few extra days. Plenty of spare spaces but they still wanted payment for an extra day. Person who'd authorised the late leaving time was the manager and she simply denied it. Refused to pay extra and left about 14:30 after last minute shopping. Lots of room and they were closing for lunch so I think they were just trying it on to get another day out of us. We anchored off for an hour or so until a little before LW and then went up river.

 

[capnsensible]

Re: Guadiana bar update

Ayamonte has been dredged recently. Plenty of water there 2 weeks ago. Plenty of berths too.....

 

[blampied]

10 mtr motor boat, am I OK going to Portugal?

We have a single engined Aquastar 33. we motored down from Jersey through the French Canal to the Med then coastal hopped down the Spanish coast and have just spent the winter in Cartagena.

We never had any intention of going to Portugal but so many of the people who overwintered here in Cartagena have sung the praises of or have now left headed for Lagos in Portugal. That we would like to go have a look see what it's all about, (and if it's good possibly overwinter there next winter). From Cartagena to Gibraltar, then across to Morocco to check out of the EU then Lagos?

I have read a lot in the past about Portugal requiring UK boats to have more safety equipment than normal, things like Offshore LifeRafts etc?

We are a 10 meter single engine motor boat and have no intention of exceeding 25miles from the Portugese coast.
Our safety equipment consists of
A coastal life raft
Life jackets
Flares
AIS
A single anchor

If I have to spend stupid amounts buying a new LifeRaft etc, then we just won't go.
What do the panel suggest, am I compliant?
Is there someone in the Portugese coast guard that I can e.mal for reassurance or something similar.

 

[nortada]

Re: 10 mtr motor boat, am I OK going to Portugal?

As a sail boat can't really advise but there are plenty of your kind of boats on the Algarve in Vilamoura and Albuferira rather than Lagos. Might be because they are closer to Faro airport and power boaters tend to commute rather than spend the whole winter afloat like the yotties.

You might find a look at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?338051-The-Truth-About-Sailing-On-The-Algarve useful.

Additionally, you may get a bigger response if you posed your questions on that thread.

 

[Tranona]

Re: 10 mtr motor boat, am I OK going to Portugal?

Firstly the new "rules" do not apply to visitors, but only to boats deemed to be "resident" - that is kept in Portuguese waters for over 180 days a year. Second the equipment requirements are not particularly onerous for a well found boat. Third there does not seem much evidence that the rules are being enforced very rigorously. Hopefully some more of the Portuguese regulars will advise on the last point. However don't think it should put you off visiting.

 

[Moderator]

Re: Guadiana bar update

Threads merged as suggested/requested.

 

[GHA]

Re: 10 mtr motor boat, am I OK going to Portugal?

This link may be in interest...
http://liveinfo.lagosnavigators.net/httpdocs/bureaucracy/application-to-visiting-yachtsmen/

 

[nortada]

Re: 10 mtr motor boat, am I OK going to Portugal?

Firstly the new "rules" do not apply to visitors, but only to boats deemed to be "resident" - that is kept in Portuguese waters for over 180 days a year. Second the equipment requirements are not particularly onerous for a well found boat. Third there does not seem much evidence that the rules are being enforced very rigorously. Hopefully some more of the Portuguese regulars will advise on the last point. However don't think it should put you off visiting.

As one who has been in Portugal (on and off) for a number of years still not too sure what these new rules are?

The 183 day contiguous rule applies to matriculation rather than residency, which applies to foreign nationals.

I don't think there is any period of grace for compliance with marine safety equipment regulations?

Truth is from experience, unless you choose to be awkward, the Portuguese authorities are not a problem.

 

[nortada]

Re: 10 mtr motor boat, am I OK going to Portugal?

This link may be in interest...
http://liveinfo.lagosnavigators.net/httpdocs/bureaucracy/application-to-visiting-yachtsmen/

Whilst of interest, this link was produced with the offshore fraternity in mind. Moreover, to the best of my knowledge, no yacht within 25nm of a safe haven (anywhere along the Algarve Coast) has ever been required to produce offshore safety equipment; nor has anybody outside 25nm (international rather than Portuguese waters) ever been stopped at sea by the Portuguese Authorities. It would be in the interests of all if somebody would produce facts prove me wrong. Additionally, it appears that over the past couple of years, the authorities attitude to foreign flagged vessels has softened. Possibly on instruction from above.

The only things that still appears of interest are Light Dues (2€), obtainable in Vila Real and possibly in date flares, obtainable at a reasonable price in Ayamonte at Ayamar Chandlery.

As pointed out in #2 there is a load of useful (and not-so-useful dated) gen on http://liveinfo.lagosnavigators.net/httpdocs/bureaucracy/application-to-visiting-yachtsmen/

Might be useful if the Mods merged these threads to keep these related topics together?

 

[RAI]

Re: 10 mtr motor boat, am I OK going to Portugal?

I have read a lot in the past about Portugal requiring UK boats to have more safety equipment than normal, things like Offshore LifeRafts etc?

What the rules are and how they are applied are two very different things.
I got visited on two consecutive days "up the Guadiana". The first by three young Portuguese GNR gentlemen and the second by one GNR and four Spanish boys and girls in uniform. They wanted to see passports, boat's registration document and insurance, plus a nice chat. I shall not list the equipment that they did not ask about, 'cos they didn't. I was glad about that.

 

[GrahamM376]

Re: 10 mtr motor boat, am I OK going to Portugal?

As one who has been in Portugal (on and off) for a number of years still not too sure what these new rules are?
The 183 day contiguous rule applies to matriculation rather than residency, which applies to foreign nationals.
I don't think there is any period of grace for compliance with marine safety equipment regulations?
Truth is from experience, unless you choose to be awkward, the Portuguese authorities are not a problem.

A few years ago there were a few problems when boats were inspected at sea by the Policia Maritima and Navy. They were demanding Portuguese safety equipment standards and "threatening" fines. A couple of boats I know of were diverted to the nearest ports to - in one case to update flares and in another repack an out of date liferaft but never met anyone who had actually been fined. The RYA became involved in discussions with the regulating authorities in Lisbon to try to get these requirements stopped and the end product was that Portuguese would treat boats in their waters for less than 6 months as visitors but those staying 6 months or more as resident and having to comply.

As you say, it's much more relaxed these days but they are now frequently asking for an ICC.

 

[nortada]

Re: 10 mtr motor boat, am I OK going to Portugal?

A few years ago there were a few problems when boats were inspected at sea by the Policia Maritima and Navy. They were demanding Portuguese safety equipment standards and "threatening" fines. A couple of boats I know of were diverted to the nearest ports to - in one case to update flares and in another repack an out of date liferaft but never met anyone who had actually been fined. The RYA became involved in discussions with the regulating authorities in Lisbon to try to get these requirements stopped and the end product was that Portuguese would treat boats in their waters for less than 6 months as visitors but those staying 6 months or more as resident and having to comply.

As you say, it's much more relaxed these days but they are now frequently asking for an ICC.

:encouragement: +1 but they seem to be happy with either the Yachtmaster Certificate (which also has a picture - but not so sure about the Coastal Shipper (which doesn't).

ps I own up to being the one who asked the Moderators to merge all of the Al;garve Threads to keep it all in one place. Please forgive my presumption.

Thanks a lot Mods.

 

[macd]

Re: 10 mtr motor boat, am I OK going to Portugal?

As you say, it's much more relaxed these days but they are now frequently asking for an ICC.

Wonderfully ironic as Portugal has not adopted Resolution 40 so doesn't formally recognise the ICC. Funny old world.