The sinking of HMS HOOD - on TV now

[Norman_E]

The Hood was as well armoured as any battleship. Whether the armour was in the right place is another matter......

Not really true. Hood's deck armour averaged only a little over 2 inches thick, and most of her armour was thin by battleship standards. Full details are here. Though it is relevant if the fatal shot was a plunging shell, at the range that would not have been the case from Bismarck's main 15 inch guns. I actually think that a hit below the main armour belt from a 15 inch shell is more likely, unless Bismarck's secondary armament (5.9 inch) or a shell from Prinz Eugen hit the deck. Both seem unlikely as both Bismarck's secondary guns and the main armament of Prinz Eugen were supposed to have been firing at Prince of Wales.

 

[JayBee]

Much more useful and educated comment on this thread than on the programme!

 

[Sailfree]

Looked up wikipedia this morning - worth a read.

I was surprised when I read about the secret raid on the scuttled Graf Spee to examine and remove what was useful of their Seekrat radar as reading all the hero storys of the battle of britain I thought Britain was at the forefront of Radar development.

As I stated History is written by the victors but why were all our capital ships so poorly equiped yet German boats had Radar and why dod the RN keep insisting on rapid rates of Fire.

I appreciate that WW2 was a watershed event that proved all countries navy admirals wrong as Battleships had been eclipsed by aircraft. A lesson fully driven home by Pearl Harbour, Battle of Midway and the twats that sent the Price of Wales and Renown to the far east to operate without adequate air cover.

I appreciate that Radar was quickly developed for British boats but necessitated by the early war technique of Gernman Submarines entering a convey on the surface to torpedo Convoy ships.

The winner learns in the end but often only after any prewar high commands in all 3 services are sacked and open minded leaders appointed that react to the war as found rather than pre-conceived pre war ideas and plans.

 

[NPMR]

My late father-in-law came off the Hood, not long before this action. He went to be commissioned and so survived. He had seen action on the Hood, however, in the effort to stop the French warships falling into German hands.

He was one of the very last surviving sailors who had been on the Hood at all. (Obviously, not one of the 3 survivors from the action) I do not know if there are any left now.

A lucky turn of fate for him, sadly not replicated for all those many others.

 

[HinewaisMan]

Talking of the web, there are some interesting “What-if” sites around – wondering in highly technical terms what would have happened if various battleships/cruisers had fought each other – Bismarck vs a South Dakota class, Yamoto vs an Iowa class etc etc.

General consensus is that the Septics would generally have won, primarily due to better fire control (and most articles emanate from the States).

But it would only have taken one 18.1” shell from Yamoto to really ruin your day.

(Yamoto itself took a huge punishment - something like a dozen torpedoes and numerous bombs – before it sank. All were dropped by carrier aircraft - I think I read somewhere that no planes were lost – the day of the super battleship was well and truly finished!)

 

[tidclacy]

Hood was basically designed in World War One prior to Jutland, the lessons of this battle were incorporated, but it was too late to properly change the design effectively. Although it has to be remembered Hoods main belt was more effective than any ship of the First World War and better than many later ships. But deck Armour was another matter.

In 1919 tests were carried out using a new 15"APC shell against a replica target of Hood. In the first trials the impact was on the thin upper belt which allowed the shell to reach the magazine crown. It was decided to increase the deck over the after magazines by 6" and forward ones by 5" but this work was not carried out! Later trials suggested a vulnerability to plunging shells below the belt.

Hoods armour amounted to 33% of her total displacement making her a fast battleship rather than a lightly armoured battle cruiser.The later Nelson was 29% and the King George the Fifth 36% The numerous changes made after Jutland led to poor use of this weight and ultimately to her loss. The conning tower alone was 600 tons, a waste of weight.

Hood was not modernised prior to her loss so she was basically twenty years behind Bismark.

The British ships approach allowed the Bismark to cross their T, effectively at the beginning of the battle giving the enemy a two to one advantage in gunfire. This was done to decrease the range as soon as possible to avoid plunging shells on Hoods weak deck Armour. Just as she was turning to present her full broadside she was hit and blew up.

I thought the Channel Four program was quite weak and did not fully explain the true situation. Most of the above information comes from "The Grand Fleet " Warship design and development 1906 to 1922 by D K Brown

 

[SpottyDog5]

How can you be when you are on the forum?? I bet you have the radio on and are listening to your iPod too!

I used to be a woman, in a previous life

 

[Grumpybear]

The rate of fire fetish in the British battlecruisers, leading to suicidal ammunition handling practices, was exposed by the narrow survival of the LION at Jutland after her midship turret was hit and flash nearly destroyed her while her three sisters blew up (by the way, the German battlecruisrs were just as bad initially, but their narrow squeak came at Dogger Bank, and caused them to mend their ways earlier than the British). After that, ammunition handling precautions were tightened up, so I think that can be excluded as a cause of HOOD's loss, and there was also a real drive to improve gunnery. HOOD was actually launched at Clydebank on the day of Jutland, and had a lot of extra armour added before completion, so much so that her freeboard was reduced to the extent that at speed in quite moderate weather her quarterdeck was usually out of bounds.

As has been said above, she was due for a major modiernisation in the thirties which would have made her a much more battle worthy ship, but the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War caused its postponement, and then WWII began....

I didn't see the programme, but I read many years ago that eyewitnesses in the POW and Germans aboard Prinz Eugen saw a fire at the base of her mainmast just before she blew up and the hull broke in two at about that point. Her four inch AA magazine was below that area, close to her after 15" magazines. Did Channel 4 come up with anything new on that?

 

[photodog]

The Chanel 4 program agreed with the previous admiralty findings that the catastrophe started in the four inch magazine and then spread to the fifteen... But as the damage was so catastrophic midships there is no way to tell what caused the explosion....

 

[Resolution]

My late father-in-law came off the Hood, not long before this action. He went to be commissioned and so survived. He had seen action on the Hood, however, in the effort to stop the French warships falling into German hands.

He was one of the very last surviving sailors who had been on the Hood at all. (Obviously, not one of the 3 survivors from the action) I do not know if there are any left now.

One of my neighbours, Commander Evans, served on Hood sometime earlier, presumably as very young man. He is now just into his 90s. I am sure he would be delighted to answer any relevant questions any of you might wish to ask.

 

[NPMR]

One of my neighbours, Commander Evans, served on Hood sometime earlier, presumably as very young man. He is now just into his 90s.

The name rings a bell.

I suspect they knew each other - F-i-L was Commander Robert Philpott.

Sadly missed and not too long departed.

 

[binch]

HMS Hood.

Hood was a battle cruiser, not a battleship.
I served in the last battlecruiser in the RN, HMS Renown, the sister ship of the Repulse which was torpedoed with HMS POW in the Malacca Straits. We went deeply into the inherent faults of the British battlecruisers.
They were built for speed and lightly armoured with a thickness of just over half that fitted to battleships, but capable of over 30 knots instead of only 23.
German armour-piercing shells were much superior to British.
All our battlecruisers vibrated badly at high speed and this affected the gunsights which were of poor quality compared with the German stereoscopic ones. For example, Hood's first salvo was 2000 yards over.
Going back to Jutland:
There were anti-flash safety locks on the ammunition hoists, but Beatty, who was a charismatic flash harry ordered they shouldbe dismantled. Warrant Gunner Grant refused to do that and HMS Lion (Beatty's flagship fought with the anti-flash locks in place. She survived. Lucky for some.
Beatty and Jellicoe conspired to whitewash the official account of Jutland which was a Royal Naval shambles. (Beatty, who was a society sort of chap chose Lt Ralph Seymour as his Flag Lieutenant, an officer who specialised in debutantes rather than signalling and who really screwed up.)
The result of their report of procedings, and the fact that Beatty became First Sea Lord, was that removable anti-flash interlocks were fitted to Hood in due course. Well?
They were fitted also to Renown and were kept in place. I saw them.
HMS Renown paidoff to scrap in 1948.
one other thing: British armour-piercing shells were ****.

 

[Sans Bateau]

A couple of villages away from where I grew up they had a 'Hood memorial Hall'. The story has it a whole load of local lads joined the navy and were all serving together on Hood when she went down. In a small village the entire generation of young men died in one incident.

 

[maxi77]

Of course the RN made the Battlecruiser obsolete by building the Queen Elizabeth fast Battleships, all the speed, all the armour, and all the guns.

 

[VexedIllologist]

Jutland 1916

Because the Germans withdrew after the battle the British claimed success. The Germans considered they had won as they had sunk and badly damaged more British boats.

War is not a football match, where 'success' is decided by the comparative number of 'goals scored' (or ships sunk / men killed in the case of Jutland).

The German strategic objective was that the German High Seas Fleet should break the British blockade of Germany by destroying the British Grand Fleet; the British objective was to prevent the German fleet reaching the High Seas and breaking the blockade.

Germany's strategic objective was not achieved, while the British blockade was maintained.

Remember, some Germans (and even an Austrian Corporal) did not accept that Germany lost the war; that is why 1415 men lost their lives in moments in HMS HOOD.

 

[Marsupial]

My father long departed was one of the first radar gunners in the RN, the high rate of fire was he said necessary because the gunnery accuracy was so bad, the guns were not actually controlled by the radar (which is sort of implied), for all the complicated reasons given above. Instead, they used radar to detect the fall of shot - and in his words, "dismiss the screen reading and guess again" - and miss again. The answer to poor gunnery was to fire as many rounds as possible and hope that one or two would hit the target, they thought that one 15" shell landing somewhere on a capital ship would put it out of action.

 

[Seajet]

When making an essential stop at the fish and chippie in Petworth, West Sussex I noticed a large painting of the Hood, and asked the lady serving why it was there.

It turned out her Grandfather was one of the three survivors, as far as I know she and the painting are still there.

 

[alant]

When making an essential stop at the fish and chippie in Petworth, West Sussex I noticed a large painting of the Hood, and asked the lady serving why it was there.

It turned out her Grandfather was one of the three survivors, as far as I know she and the painting are still there.

Next time anyone is in Lymington, the Hood Memorial is at Boldre Church.

http://www.bsbb.org.uk/history/page4.html

 

[Joker]

As to radar and rate of fire etc - at the Battle of the North Cape, HMS Duke of York was tracking Scharnhost on radar, this being December north of the Artic Circle. DoY opens fire, radar controlled, and scores a hit with the first salvo.

 

[Seajet]

As to radar and rate of fire etc - at the Battle of the North Cape, HMS Duke of York was tracking Scharnhost on radar, this being December north of the Artic Circle. DoY opens fire, radar controlled, and scores a hit with the first salvo.

Joker,

wasn't Duke of York a King George 5th - KG5 - class, the KG5 herself going out in the scramble to get the Bismarck despite her electronics not being operationally ready ?

Seems the hit on the Scharnhorst was luck more than anything else.

On the other hand in the brilliantly researched ' If The Gods Are Good ' about the armed merchant cruiser HMS Jervis Bay valiantly taking on the German pocket battleship Admiral Scheer, the German rangefinding radar was reported by her crew as having been knocked out by the recoil of her own guns.

--------------

In retrospect I don't think DoY was KG5 class, I suspect a bit earlier ( as in Warspite ? ) but with similar retrofitted radar, I can't get at my books to check.