The sinking of HMS HOOD - on TV now

[Daydream believer]

Apart from all that a well aimed exocett from 60 miles away makes the whole lot redundant
I am just glad that all those poor souls came forward when they did & we won

 

[Grumpybear]

Joker,

wasn't Duke of York a King George 5th - KG5 - class, the KG5 herself going out in the scramble to get the Bismarck despite her electronics not being operationally ready ?

Seems the hit on the Scharnhorst was luck more than anything else.

On the other hand in the brilliantly researched ' If The Gods Are Good ' about the armed merchant cruiser HMS Jervis Bay valiantly taking on the German pocket battleship Admiral Scheer, the German rangefinding radar was reported by her crew as having been knocked out by the recoil of her own guns.

--------------

In retrospect I don't think DoY was KG5 class, I suspect a bit earlier ( as in Warspite ? ) but with similar retrofitted radar, I can't get at my books to check.

DoY was a unit of the KGV class, but gunlaying and oher forms of radar developed fast between the end of 1940 when KGV left her builder's yard and the end of 1943 when Scharnhorst was sunk. We should also remember that long range gunnery in those days depended on a lot of luck as well as all the kit working: even gunnery experts hesitated to claim that they could do better than 3% of hits at long range. They could always be wound up by telling them (as was proved by post WWII analysis) that 22% of torpedoes fired from a submarine would hit, and in the best place to let the water in, too!

 

[maxi77]

DoY was a unit of the KGV class, but gunlaying and oher forms of radar developed fast between the end of 1940 when KGV left her builder's yard and the end of 1943 when Scharnhorst was sunk. We should also remember that long range gunnery in those days depended on a lot of luck as well as all the kit working: even gunnery experts hesitated to claim that they could do better than 3% of hits at long range. They could always be wound up by telling them (as was proved by post WWII analysis) that 22% of torpedoes fired from a submarine would hit, and in the best place to let the water in, too!

Radar updates during the war seemed by todays standards to be meteoric. The fundamental of the fire control was the superb fire control table which by then gave very good results if the input data was good. Radar gave excellent range data, both for the target and on good days the fall of shot making range correction much better.

You must also take into account the typical range for a torpedo attack was 800 yards, though the time of flight was often longer than that of a shell

Taken from Wiki "During the early part of her action against the Scharnhorst at the Battle of the North Cape on 26 December 1943, Duke of York scored 31 straddles out of 52 broadsides fired and during the latter part she scored 21 straddles out of 25 broadsides, a very creditable gunnery performance. " Seems like a trifle more than good luck

 

[tidclacy]

Hood was a battle cruiser, not a battleship.
I served in the last battlecruiser in the RN, HMS Renown, the sister ship of the Repulse which was torpedoed with HMS POW in the Malacca Straits. We went deeply into the inherent faults of the British battlecruisers.
They were built for speed and lightly armoured with a thickness of just over half that fitted to battleships, but capable of over 30 knots instead of only 23.

As I said in my earlier post Hood was a fast battleship not a Battle cruiser. The problem was she had more armour than most battleships of the time but it was just not in the right place twenty years down the line.

Repulse and Renown were originally planned to be further battleships of the Royal Sovereign class but were completed as Battle Cruisers with two less guns but more speed and not much armour. Far inferior to Hood.

Repulse and Renown had a armour belt of 1.5 " upper and 6" main belt. Hoods Main belt was 12" tapering upwards to 7" then 5". The Queen Elizabeth class had a Main belt 13" which was quite narrow, lower belt 8" upper belt 6".

The Bismark's main belt was 12.6" upper belt 5.75"

 

[Grumpybear]

Radar updates during the war seemed by todays standards to be meteoric. The fundamental of the fire control was the superb fire control table which by then gave very good results if the input data was good. Radar gave excellent range data, both for the target and on good days the fall of shot making range correction much better.

You must also take into account the typical range for a torpedo attack was 800 yards, though the time of flight was often longer than that of a shell

Taken from Wiki "During the early part of her action against the Scharnhorst at the Battle of the North Cape on 26 December 1943, Duke of York scored 31 straddles out of 52 broadsides fired and during the latter part she scored 21 straddles out of 25 broadsides, a very creditable gunnery performance. " Seems like a trifle more than good luck

True, but a straddle is a very different matter from a direct hit. BTW, I wasn't criticising the standard of British gunnery, rather responding to what seemed to me an unfair comparison of British and German performance in an earlier post.

As an example of what I mean by the effect of luck, the cruiser Southampton at Jutland was under fire at not excessive ranges from a number of German battleships (with admittedly better rangefinders) for well over an hour, but was not hit. Her navigator's competent ship handling provides most but surely not all the explanation for her survival.

 

[maxi77]

True, but a straddle is a very different matter from a direct hit. BTW, I wasn't criticising the standard of British gunnery, rather responding to what seemed to me an unfair comparison of British and German performance in an earlier post.

As an example of what I mean by the effect of luck, the cruiser Southampton at Jutland was under fire at not excessive ranges from a number of German battleships (with admittedly better rangefinders) for well over an hour, but was not hit. Her navigator's competent ship handling provides most but surely not all the explanation for her survival.

A straddle is as close to a hit and in reality many straddle salvos did contain hits, often multiple hits. The fundamental of a straddle is some over some under, and based on the levels of consistency in propellant by then the salvos spread was relatively small so statistically and in reality straddles meant hits.

Certainly skillful handling of smaller ships and as a light cruiser of that era she was not big but relatively fast and I suspect handled like the marine equivalent of a sports car. The trick is not to be where he thought you would be when his shells arrive. Speed and unpredictable course changes was a well known avoidance method even back then

 

[Grumpybear]

A straddle is as close to a hit and in reality many straddle salvos did contain hits, often multiple hits. The fundamental of a straddle is some over some under, and based on the levels of consistency in propellant by then the salvos spread was relatively small so statistically and in reality straddles meant hits.

Certainly skillful handling of smaller ships and as a light cruiser of that era she was not big but relatively fast and I suspect handled like the marine equivalent of a sports car. The trick is not to be where he thought you would be when his shells arrive. Speed and unpredictable course changes was a well known avoidance method even back then

True enough, but not a foolproof method. Southampton's navigator was I believe simply weaving, according to an eyewitness, but if a Grman gun layer had fired a second early or late.....

 

[Seajet]

Well I'd rather be straddled than hit,( by shellfire, that is ) haven't tried either yet but then I haven't been to Ramsgit !

 

[jonjo]

A lesson fully driven home by Pearl Harbour, Battle of Midway and the twats that sent the Price of Wales and Renown to the far east to operate without adequate air cover.

A carrier was designated to join that task force but some twats in the RN drove the carrier into a reef in the Caribbean. At the same time Churchill was struggling to convince the yanks we were a worthy military ally, so a gesture to engage had to be made.

 

[maxi77]

Well I'd rather be straddled than hit,( by shellfire, that is ) haven't tried either yet but then I haven't been to Ramsgit !

If you are straddled without a hit ( unlikely with a big broadside of 10-12 guns), the next salvo will probably get you. Also many ships suffered shock damage from the near misses

 

[alant]

If you are straddled without a hit ( unlikely with a big broadside of 10-12 guns), the next salvo will probably get you. Also many ships suffered shock damage from the near misses

Weren't the US Battlewagons (Mississipi et al), supposed to be nuke proof, when more recently used?

 

[sailorman]

Hood was a battle cruiser, not a battleship.
I served in the last battlecruiser in the RN, HMS Renown, the sister ship of the Repulse which was torpedoed with HMS POW in the Malacca Straits. We went deeply into the inherent faults of the British battlecruisers.
They were built for speed and lightly armoured with a thickness of just over half that fitted to battleships, but capable of over 30 knots instead of only 23.

As I said in my earlier post Hood was a fast battleship not a Battle cruiser. The problem was she had more armour than most battleships of the time but it was just not in the right place twenty years down the line.

Repulse and Renown were originally planned to be further battleships of the Royal Sovereign class but were completed as Battle Cruisers with two less guns but more speed and not much armour. Far inferior to Hood.

Repulse and Renown had a armour belt of 1.5 " upper and 6" main belt. Hoods Main belt was 12" tapering upwards to 7" then 5". The Queen Elizabeth class had a Main belt 13" which was quite narrow, lower belt 8" upper belt 6".

The Bismark's main belt was 12.6" upper belt 5.75"

How was this heavy armour plating fixed to the hull pls

 

[Sailfree]

I wasn't criticising the standard of British gunnery, rather responding to what seemed to me an unfair comparison of British and German performance in an earlier post.

I was as Jutland and Bismark demonstrated the effectiveness and accuracy of German Gun control was far better than the British.

We caught up during the war but I wonder how much was due to stealing the Seekrat radar off the Graf Spee.

 

[maxi77]

I was as Jutland and Bismark demonstrated the effectiveness and accuracy of German Gun control was far better than the British.

We caught up during the war but I wonder how much was due to stealing the Seekrat radar off the Graf Spee.

The RN Fire Control Table was actually quite good, as was the system of director control the difference was in the rangefinder, the Germans went for a system that was fast and accurate to use but sensitive to shock whereas the RN one was much more robust so still worked well after you have taken a few hits. I doubt any one will ever know how much was learnt from nicking the antenna but the RN had precision ranging in 1939 and continued developing obviously throughout the war. Also RN radars seem to claim greater ranges than the Germans Seetakt which one report claimed was 20km well under the max range of big guns.

 

[BobPrell]

I was as Jutland and Bismark demonstrated the effectiveness and accuracy of German Gun control was far better than the British.

We caught up during the war but I wonder how much was due to stealing the Seekrat radar off the Graf Spee.

That is a tantalizing typo Sailfree.

Were you at Jutland?

Or was "It" at Jutland? What?

About the Graf Spee's radar, even if the British believed their radar to be better, they would want to inspect the enemy's gear to see how much better. That would be good enough reason to look.

 

[Sailfree]

That is a tantalizing typo Sailfree.

Were you at Jutland?

Or was "It" at Jutland? What?

About the Graf Spee's radar, even if the British believed their radar to be better, they would want to inspect the enemy's gear to see how much better. That would be good enough reason to look.

Got me!!

Happy to evaluate which is best on effectiveness and the one thing that bought about Bismarks destruction was the Swordfish and the incredibly brave pilots of such outdated aircraft not the gunnery until it was outgunned by some incredible odds.

WRT gunnery both at Jutland and on the Bismark ours did not do too well on the effectiveness stakes. Be interested in learning the extent of the use of RAdar on British Ships in 1939 and how good it was as with me being at Jutland I was too old for WWII !!

 

[VexedIllologist]

Nuclear Proof?

Weren't the US Battlewagons (Mississipi et al), supposed to be nuke proof, when more recently used?

Well, Prinz Eugen survived the first two atom bomb tests.

 

[BobPrell]

maxi77 mentions lucky hits,

Joker in #19 says "we got lucky when the torpedo jammed the rudder"

HinewaisMan says "one 18" shell from Yamato would ruin your day."

If you are straddled without a hit ( unlikely with a big broadside of 10-12 guns), the next salvo will probably get you. Also many ships suffered shock damage from the near misses

I agree with these ideas.

My theory is that first a long salvo would be fired to establish the range, then concentrated salvoes when firing "for effect". How concentrated would be a matter for the operations research experts.

I presume that if you get enough straddles with a concentrated spread, you will get some hits sooner or later.

Sooner if you are lucky, and later or not at all if you are not. It certainly seems there were hits that turned out to be ineffective. The escort carrier Gambier Bay apparently took multiple hits from Japanese ships including battleships but did not sink instantly, and it was not armoured.

From what I have read about the big gun armoured battleship era, it seems a very chancy affair. When there were only few engagements involving small numbers of ships, it is not at all clear what was "best practise".

 

[davidfox]

My late father-in-law came off the Hood, not long before this action. He went to be commissioned and so survived. He had seen action on the Hood, however, in the effort to stop the French warships falling into German hands.

He was one of the very last surviving sailors who had been on the Hood at all. (Obviously, not one of the 3 survivors from the action) I do not know if there are any left now.

A lucky turn of fate for him, sadly not replicated for all those many others.

My father (a bootneck) was on Hood in 1938 for a time and was transfered to Arethusa (lucky boy - im talking about me!) He lost a lot of friends in the band service, he said that everyone was in complete shock when the signal that the Hood had been sunk came through, the fleet were all ordered after the Hood and they thought there number was up.

 

[BobPrell]

Well, Prinz Eugen survived the first two atom bomb tests.

It did indeed, though whether a crew on board would have been fit to fight is another question.

The Iowa class battleships would probably have been able to survive nukes not too close. They would have been expected to survive direct hits from cruise missiles with conventional warheads, but that chance factor comes in, does it hit a vital spot?