The second hand market

[ceeagr]

I was just wondering if anybody had any views on the state of the second hand market? I suspect its not as buoyant as brokers would leave us to belive.

I'm supprised one of the Magazines dosn't do a survey of sales in much the same way as some of the housing surveys.

Alistair

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Koeketiene]

Of course not!

Have you seen the amount of advertising space brokers take up in yachting mags? Just wouldn't be commercially sound to piss them off.

OTH: with advertising there most likely wouldn't be any yachting mags.

Catch 22

<hr width=100% size=1>Fair winds.
If not... reef early!

 

[supermalc]

Read all the ads, see all the high prices, all seems rosy. However, look on Ebay at boats that actually sell. Apart from ones at around third the value, most do not make the reserve.....unsold.

<hr width=100% size=1>Malcolm. Just trying to be helpful.

 

[BrendanS]

Probably because they are advertising in the wrong place. If I were buying a boat, ebay would be the last place I'd look

<hr width=100% size=1>There is no such thing as "fun for the whole family."

 

[Fin]

My other half and I looked for a boat for about a year before the right one came along. Made the initial mistake of only using what we thought were the few biggest websites and didn't find much. We found that the best way was to search through all the brokers in the country that had websites. The advantage is that they are updated immediately vs 1 1/2 - 2 month lag that we found on some of the bigger websites. By doing this we found a lot more boats that we didn't know about and more importantly found out about them quicker.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[StephenSails]

For some reason brokers get their space cheaper than other marine businesses.

<hr width=100% size=1>Visit my discount online chandlery and news site
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yachtinguniverse.com>http://www.yachtinguniverse.com</A>

 

[BrendanS]

I didn't knock websites!! Just ebay. Ebay is a bidding system, and can't see much point in looking to buy a boat there, as there is no way I would enter a bidding war for a boat I probably couldn't inspect.

<hr width=100% size=1>There is no such thing as "fun for the whole family."

 

[Cantata]

We're doing the rounds again looking for a 'new' boat. Once again getting very depressed looking a dirty, smelly, unmaintained tired old boats, advertised as 'in good condition'! And yacht brokers who do nothing more for prospective buyers than hand over the key and tell you where to find a ladder.
But then it's good to know that these comments certainly wouldn't apply to any users of this forum!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[billmacfarlane]

Like any market it's seasonal. It'll be just starting to pick up on the lead up to spring. On the other hand companies like Bavaria have affected the price of 2nd hand boats which should mean that if your after a used boat you can try silly offers. A couple of years ago I put my boat on the market in September but I never got a viewer until January and an offer until April which is when I think the market reaches its peak. Of course any broker won't give you a clear and honest picture of the market. They'll talk it up to inflate prices just like estate agents.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[supermalc]

Which is what I did (not look on Ebay) 2 years ago. Wanted a small cheap river cruiser. I got my Norman 18ft from Nationwide (I don't mind nameing them) I was told the engine was ok, a small 7.5 Honda 4 stroke outboard. In fact is seemed to be alright when we tried it in a tub of water before launching. However, it had no oil pressure, so self destructed on my first trip (see website for full story <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/malcsworld/>http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/malcsworld/</A>)

I have finally found a boat on ebay, although I only used my bid as a way of making contact with the owner.

Sound Mahogany clinker, recon YSB12, GPS and new fishfinder. And less than half price.

My point....it doesn't matter WHERE the boat is, as long as you find the right one.

<hr width=100% size=1>Malcolm. Just trying to be helpful.

 

[jonjo]

There is indeed an untold story about the poor state of the second hand yacht market.

I don't believe brokerage adverting income is holding magazine editors to ransom, after all brokers want throughput and the main obstacle to this is the price expectations of private owners.

Special interest magazines ultimately feel obliged to convey positive vibes so you tend not to read economic doom and gloom stories. Also a magazine must not offend its readership, for example the Yachting Monthly A to Z design series cannot publish realistic valuations.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[BrendanS]

As you said. You didn't buy it on ebay, you made contact with owner.

ebay is not suited to selling boats - hence few sell at above reserve price. so not a good place to use as an indicator of second hand market. which brings us full circle back to my original point.

Before anyone else jumps in and tells me that they bought/sold their boat on ebay - don't bother. I don't give a toss about exceptions

<hr width=100% size=1>There is no such thing as "fun for the whole family."

 

[jonjo]

> getting very depressed looking a dirty, smelly, unmaintained tired
> old boats, advertised as 'in good condition'!

Join the club.

I went to see a Contessa 32 last week-end. This example had not been afloat for 1 year but even so the water level in the bilge was over the cabin sole!

Good boats do appear but sell quickly, so by definition at any point in time the market tends to be comprised of difficult to sell examples.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[jonjo]

Sorry but seasonal variations do not explain what has happening to second hand yacht sales over the past three years.

Buyers are beginning to question the economic life expectancy of GRP boats once over 20 years old.

Think of it this way, after 30 years of normal use but low investment just what is the residual value of the components that comprise a seagoing yacht?

If the hull has signs of osmosis or poor previous repair.
The engine is rusty and ancient.
The rudder moves about around the stock.
The stock wobbles in the stern tube.
The windows are corroding and leaking.
The hatches crazed.
The sails are knackered.
The cushions rank.
The cooker is rusty.
The water tank has osmosis.
The gas bottles don't have a proper locker.
The electrics have suffered from 20 years of botched diy projects.
The surveyor is worried about the keel bolts and rigging.
The boom only supports roller reefing.
The anchor chain is rusty.
And the head lining is drooping.

Just how much is such a yacht worth even though it was capable of racing across the Atlantic 30 years ago?

If the above (purely fictional ) yacht was say an Ohlson 38 then logically it is a 10k restoration project but it would probably be advertised for 28k needing “some interior improvements”

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[john_morris_uk]

I'll second your thoughts. We are in the same position - the response of SWMBO when we see some boats is 'why did we sell our last one'. It was dry, clean, smelled nice, and all the gear worked etc. Almost the first person who saw it made an offer and a few days later the deal was done. Meanwhile we troop around the country looking at boats that are shabby, old and broken gear with owners asking top price. (sorry nearly got onto main transmit mode...) And the attitude of some brokers is a complete joke. We'll give our requirements which invariably ends with anything but a Bavaria (sorry all you Bavaria owners) and what comes in the post the next day but details of several s***ing Bavarias...

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[supermalc]

Just keep looking, and have patience. Sooner or later you will find a genuine seller, like me.

I am selling my 18ft Norman because it needs someone with a little more physical and financial circumstance to look after it. Hopefully, my 'downgrading' to my fishing boat will enable me to pay the moorings charges etc. and so carry on boating for a year or two longer.

<hr width=100% size=1>Malcolm. Just trying to be helpful.

 

[Lizzie_B]

I know what you mean. I was fortunate in that I also saw some very good boats when looking for Lizzie B., but I have to say, the private sellers were very open, straightforward and reasonable with the exception of one guy who's boat was not only the most expensive asking price by far but a complete wreck. The real time wasters and clowns were the brokers, and I wondered how many of the actual sellers were aware of just what a useless job the brokers were doing for them, and what ridiculous money they were asking, both for the boat and their commission. I only came across two who were value for money for their vender, whilst also helpful to the prospective purchaser. One was Martin Bandy, absolutely first class (he was so good, I was disappointed that he didn't have the right boat for me to buy), and Ancasta at Queen Anne's Battery (although not all Ancastas are the same). The guys at Mylor yacht Haven were reasonable too. I think the others were only likely to sell your boat if you were prepared to wait long enough for a complete sucker to come along.And for this I believe they charge up to 8% of the price. May be if they got a flat rate fee instead of %age commission some would do a better job and ask more realistic prices! Needless to say Lizzie was a private purchase, the vendors seemed more concerned that she was going to a good home then making lots of money.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[ex-Gladys]

We looked for 2-3 months, mainly through brokers before getting Amber. As said here already, I couldn't believe the state of a lot of them. Now a considerable time on, a lot are still for sale. In this part of the world, Woodrolfe seem to be good (we bought through them), but the "here's the leys, there's the ladder" brigade were very much in abundance. Mind you, we like ot spend our own time looking a boat over

<hr width=100% size=1>Larry Botheras

Anderson 26 "Amber"

 

[Lizzie_B]

I wouldn't have minded being left to look over the boat by my self (the owners of Lizzie B even let me sleep on her as I'd come a long way), it was the fact that the brokers seemed unable to answer even the most basic questions about the boats, eg when was the engine installed?No chance they would know when it was last serviced! Even with boats that had been on their books for some time, and that I'd actually made advanced appointments to come and see, it was 'Oh I'll have to ask the owner that' You'd think for 8% they'd at least have a thorough information sheet. As for the inaccurate descriptions of the boats, if any body else advertised so innacurately, they'd soon be out of business. On one or two occassions they had even got the type of boat wrong. Perhaps it's our fault for putting up with it, and not bringing in the ASA, perhaps we should demand compensation for wasted travel costs and time off work, but having wasted precious time and energy already, I, for one, can't be bothered to waste any more, so I guess they just get away with it. Maybe as vendors we should be more demanding.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[graham]

I once travelled 90 miles each way to look at a boat described over the phone as a grp long keel cruising boat.(The broker didnt know what design it was but the description sounded promising)

Not able to find the boat on the pontoon we eventually dragged the broker down who pointed at a plywood Robber ,if you dont know the Robber is a 25 foot racing yacht with quite an extreme fin keel.Excellent boat but totally unsuitable for our needs at the time.

As to being shown the boat ,Ithink a good broker will take you aboard and show you around then leave you alone on board for a while to think and discuss .

<hr width=100% size=1>