The pro's and cons of steel boat building

[Daydream believer]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

it makes no sense to spend over $300K on a cruising boat.
.

It makes no sense to buy an Aston Martin or a Ferrari. But when i bought my Morgan I had an immense sense of pride in it. I was sad when finances meant it had to go.
These things have style but i am yet to see a steel boat that looks anything far removed from-well to be kind- a sort of a boat!!. If they have been built with any "style" they will not have been built in the back yard by a bunch of cowboys for a few hundred bucks.
There is a lot more to owning a boat than just having a pointy box to sail around in. Ask anyone who lives in a nice home why the spend £'s making it look so. It is because they want to have pride in it. I cannot see anyone having much "pride" in the pictures that you have presented of your boats.
They may do the job - in the same way that a rubbish skip does the job perfectly well; but somehow i am happy with a wheely bin outside my house.
Take a typical modern GRP boat, whether it be an IP (the subject of this thread) or any typical modern cruising yacht & they mostly ( yes there are a few duff ones I admit) look pretty good. The use of GRP also allows the designer a far greater scope, both externally & internally. So the customer has the far wider choice - design, finance, performance -of yacht for his blue water cruising.
Somehow I do not think they would get that with one of your steel yachts. They certainly would not get the "feelgood" factor.

 

[rotrax]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

The suggestion being that ,boats should not be built strongly enough to survive mistakes, and adverse experiences , as mistakes and adverse experiences can be eliminated completely. Bob Perry ( who claims to have designed all the IP's, as well as Amazons ( a Graham Shannon design ,which he had nothing to do with designing) made the same claim.
Specs or no specs, big windows and big wheelhouses break far more easily than small ones ,period.
The Challenger was designed by the worlds top aerospace designers (infallible you say?)

Who the heck is Bob Perry?

As a long time IP owner I have never heard of him.

Bob Johnson was the designer and owner of the company.

Brent-with the clear statements you have made about your lifestyle choices, IMHO you are in no position to advise people with more money and different sailing philosophies than your low cost low carbon one.

Which, by the way, I applaud.

Yes, the wheelhouse on my Island Packet would perhaps be damaged in a knockdown. It is a design compromise and one that I actively searched for. First Mate and I have not needed our oilies since we bought Jarrow Lily except for berthing in a couple of downpours. We are happy that with proper planning and attention to weather forecasts the vessel is suitable for our use. 1500 NM's plus per year, 5 months live aboard in European waters. It works for us.

One of your 36 footers would do the job but not as well.

Your comment on the bowprit is rubbish-It is triangulated by the forestay and rig and has a heavy rod dolphin striker from the sprit to the hull. Plus it is very heavily built.

If an anchor is stuck under a rock and wont come free, I can assure you the boat would not be damaged trying to retrieve it. It is not difficult to buoy it and release the chain or warp for recovery later-if, indeed recovery is even possible.

Sailing is many things to many people. There is no universal panacea.

And if there were, I doubt if it was commercialy available steel would be its material of choice.

IMHO, of course.....................................

PS Brent-infallible was never mentioned. Must be another mistake you have made absorbing the content of a post.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

So, probably best if you stop posting on this forum unless of course you like exposing yourself to ridicule.

This posting: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/in...rent-swain-says/&tab=comments#comment-5551039

looks pretty plausible.

 

[rotrax]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Wow!

Pretty damming stuff there.

It does appear that Brent has outstayed his welcome at other sailing sites.

He has now discovered this one..................................

Watch the next exciting instalment!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Wow!

Pretty damming stuff there.

It does appear that Brent has outstayed his welcome at other sailing sites.

He has now discovered this one..................................

Watch the next exciting instalment!

There are a couple of enlightening - mainly by virtue of his own contributions - threads on the Boat Design forums.

 

[Resolution]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Who the heck is Bob Perry?

As a long time IP owner I have never heard of him.

He is a pretty well known American yacht designer. We heard of him out in Hong Kong where his Taiwanese built designs were respected.
Looking at his website I see reference to a yacht class called Islanders. Just a short leap in BS's fantastical imagination from Islander to Island Packet?
Peter

 

[rotrax]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

That sounds like the misconception.

Perhaps, as they are wont to say in Dublin, Brent is " a figment of his own imagination "

 

[DownWest]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

I just saw some of the photos taken from BS's website promoting his designs. The welds he carried out (and uses to sell the idea!) are truly awful and would be rejected out of hand by anybody with even basic knowledge.

Back to IPs...

 

[rotrax]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Yes please..................

 

[JumbleDuck]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Perhaps, as they are wont to say in Dublin, Brent is " a figment of his own imagination "

His posting style is very reminiscent of "Captain Neal". I wonder if they have ever been photographed together?

 

[Tranona]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

This posting: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/in...rent-swain-says/&tab=comments#comment-5551039

looks pretty plausible.

I had seen that and some others. He does seem to have a limited repertoire, although he does come up with the odd new tall story!

On the other thread he hijacked (which was at least about steel boats) several people, particularly John Morris tried to engage him in informed debate but unsurprisingly he was resistant to that.

At least he is not offensive in the normal sense so difficult to justify banning him. However even ignoring him does not work as he just keeps on posting his "thoughts"!

 

[rotrax]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Perhaps we should consider him as an innofensive bullshiter then?

Leave him to post and have a quiet chuckle at his faux pars.

 

[Zagato]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Now you are on the right track.

Google him, reactions to him are the same as other individuals from other forums threads from years ago. One search suggests that he does indeed have an alias. One guy even misses him despite past heated battles.

Every forum has a member who seems to get up the backs of others, seems to actually relish the attention rather than get insulted. They are famous for being the forum village idiot. We have one on a car forum, he is bullit proof, just doesn,t make sense BUT actually he livens the forum up and has become an endearing PITA, if you know what I mean. A simpleton or highly intelligent fellow or a left field nut job (who knows) that probably has very little personal wealth or power or social life and the forum is his outlet as he is safe. You kind of have an established one of those on here already. Not that I am saying that person is or BS is but a ten minute Google will perhaps give you insight into that person. Understanding rather than frustration may prevail! Certainly not worth getting heated about and trying to pound the guy into the ground, it just won,t have the intended effect! You will never win, just get more frustrated because they are used to it outside of the forum!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

You kind of have an established one of those on here already.

A conspiracy theorist who sticks mainly to The Lounge?

Not that I am saying that person is or BS is but a ten minute Google will perhaps give you insight into that person. Understanding rather than frustration may prevail! Certainly not worth getting heated about and trying to pound the guy into the ground, it just won,t have the intended effect! You will never win, just get more frustrated because they are used to it outside of the forum!

Absolutely. There are plenty of strange people online - everything from mildly eccentric to full blown mental illness or Alzheimer's. They'll never be beaten by argument and they don't do any real harm, so it ends up as a matter of ...

 

[rotrax]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Not a fair comparison. Old steel boats are invariably "cheap" - reflecting how people value them. If they suit your needs are you are happy with dealing with the downsides then clearly they are better value for you than an IP. However, not everybody values the same things, hence the availability of boats in all kinds of size, type and price range.

I have been wondering where Brent Swain got the impression that steel boats had been " attacked " in post #2.

He should have gone to Specsavers-he obviously cant read. The post he -incorectly in my view-says is attacking steel boats is, in fact, Tranona's post #12.

The post refered to IMHO makes no attack on steel boats but reflects the true position of the values of two different types of boats.

Another example of a sound and reasoned post by an experienced sailor, boat owner and senior contributor on here being taken out of context by our new evangalist steel boat fan.

Brent, steel boats dont, in the real world, fetch much money.

I am not going to suggest why this is, with all the attributes you keep ramming down our throats about the superior qualities of such vessels one would expect them to have far more retained value.

But-they dont. They are, as many, many have found to their cost, heavy on structural and cosmetic repair.

As you have found with your own home built boats. Extreme care with internal preventative coatings during build are essential for long term protection.

Others have tried unsuccessfuly to let you know their experience with steel boats. They were unsuccessful because you pay no heed to anyones direct experience if it does not meet your agenda.

You are delusional about the qualities of GRP boats. You suggest that ALL grp boats stay in Marinas 49 weeks out of 52 and will sink if within 100 metres of a whale or floating log. If they get as far as that without a serious structural failure-according to your gospel that happens all the time to most GRP boats.

I think you are the marine equivilent of a " shade tree mechanic "

Nothing wrong with that, in many ways such ingenuity is to be admired.

I have met a couple of serious shade tree mechanics in my time. The difference between them and you is that they had open minds and would always be looking at information-from all sources-to improve their work.

You appear to be under the severe misapprehension that what you build and how you use it is at the top of the sailing and lifestyle choice list.

Well, I'm telling you straight-it is not!

Its somewhere near the bottom.................................

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

As pointed out previously the assertion was the most boats suffered serious failures rather than a few isolated examples

Your words, not mine. I have only stated that it is much greater liability in plastic, than in steel. Putting words in someones mouth, so you will have something to argue against, is an admission that you have nothing else to criticize, in what was actually said ( kind like marriage.)

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

A conspiracy theorist who sticks mainly to The Lounge?



Absolutely. There are plenty of strange people online - everything from mildly eccentric to full blown mental illness or Alzheimer's. They'll never be beaten by argument and they don't do any real harm, so it ends up as a matter of ...

Search, yahoo groups origamiboats.

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

I had seen that and some others. He does seem to have a limited repertoire, although he does come up with the odd new tall story!

On the other thread he hijacked (which was at least about steel boats) several people, particularly John Morris tried to engage him in informed debate but unsurprisingly he was resistant to that.

At least he is not offensive in the normal sense so difficult to justify banning him. However even ignoring him does not work as he just keeps on posting his "thoughts"!

John Morris asked for some of my drawings, to post here ,as did people on the wind vane discussion, so I sent them . He hasn't posted them, as he promised.

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

John Morris asked for some of my drawings, to post here ,as did people on the wind vane discussion, so I sent them . He hasn't posted them, as he promised. Those wanting the wind vane drawings didn't get them, leaving the $7K ones their only option.
With so many aspiring to retire early and live the cruising dream, is there anyone crazier than someone who manages to semi retire and do it from their mid 20s on? Man, that is totally whacko, insane! You definitely don't want to follow his advice . You may actually succeed! (horror of horrors!) Think of all the money the ship swindlers wont make off you, if you quit working for them ,while you are young , and actually retire and go cruising ? Much better to get your advice from someone who has never accomplished what you "claim "to aspire to? Someone who charges $175 an hour for advice on what he himself has never accomplished, or done?

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

I just saw some of the photos taken from BS's website promoting his designs. The welds he carried out (and uses to sell the idea!) are truly awful and would be rejected out of hand by anybody with even basic knowledge.

Back to IPs...

The suggestion being that you can determine the strength and penetration of a weld by looking at a photo of the slag on top of a 6011 weld? Wow ,guys with your skill could put the weld X-ray guys out of business!
I always suggest clients hire students to do the welds, or teach themselves , which many have done, all with good results. Some have gone on to careers in the field.