The Law of Tonnage

[rotrax]

We are based in Gosport. IIRC the fifth busiest port in the UK.

If you insist on sail having right of way over power in Portsmouth Harbour you would be in for a rough time!

We have the Hovercraft, four regular ferry services, one using large vessels, three using smaller, the Pilot Boats, large and small tankers, the MOD Police, the tourist trip and museum boats, various tugs and workboats plus the RN. Rarely no large vessel moving in the Harbour.

Our rule is to always keep out of the way of working vessels, right of way or no.

It is safer that way!

QHM - Queen's Harbour Master - insists on yachts having the engine running when entering and leaving through the narrow entrance. Seen plenty of low power yachts stationary on a Spring Ebb and one or two going backwards............................

 

[Refueler]

Have to agree. Some wonderful food can be found if you look in the right places.

W.

I can say with all honesty ... best seafood and especially Shellfish - is from COLD water .... not warm. Lobster ... Prawns ... Shrimp ... Crab ... far superior from cold waters ...
North Altlantic Cod ....

Some of the most attractive food has been in USA ... but so tasteless .... !!

And to cap it all .. when I worked for Chevron in Gulf of Mexico .. we shunned all Florida Watermelon ... it looked superb but was bitter from all the nitrogen rich crap it was fed on to be first to market. Best was the later more natural grown Mississippi Watermelon ...

 

[Stemar]

QHM - Queen's Harbour Master - insists on yachts having the engine running when entering and leaving through the narrow entrance. Seen plenty of low power yachts stationary on a Spring Ebb and one or two going backwards............................

The first time we came back to harbour, I knew the engine was, well, let's say a bit tired - 2kt flat out - but we were early on the tide. I was going to anchor and wait for the tide to turn, but Milady was tired and wanted to get in, so I gave it a go. It took us 3/4 hr to get from No 4 buoy to Ballast. That's less than 3/4 mile The only way I could tell we were making progress was using transits.

 

[Stemar]

Well, I must say, I'm disappointed. I was expecting a few of the usual suspects to have public apoplexy over what is, in effect, a stuff the rules, might is right message.

Never mind Covid-19, there seems to have been an outbreak of common sense which, on a forum, is far more dangerous!

 

[GHA]

Well, I must say, I'm disappointed. I was expecting a few of the usual suspects to have public apoplexy over what is, in effect, a stuff the rules, might is right message.

Never mind Covid-19, there seems to have been an outbreak of common sense which, on a forum, is far more dangerous!

What is he saying that is against the irpcs? Seems a set of sensible responses allowed within the irpcs. His use of the concept of right of way is well off but that's pretty much irrelevant to the manoeuvres.

 

[scotty123]

We are based in Gosport. IIRC the fifth busiest port in the UK.

If you insist on sail having right of way over power in Portsmouth Harbour you would be in for a rough time!

We have the Hovercraft, four regular ferry services, one using large vessels, three using smaller, the Pilot Boats, large and small tankers, the MOD Police, the tourist trip and museum boats, various tugs and workboats plus the RN. Rarely no large vessel moving in the Harbour.

Our rule is to always keep out of the way of working vessels, right of way or no.

It is safer that way!

QHM - Queen's Harbour Master - insists on yachts having the engine running when entering and leaving through the narrow entrance. Seen plenty of low power yachts stationary on a Spring Ebb and one or two going backwards............................

Also rules & channels for small vessels, so keeping them clear of commercial stuff most of time.

 

[Refueler]

The first time we came back to harbour, I knew the engine was, well, let's say a bit tired - 2kt flat out - but we were early on the tide. I was going to anchor and wait for the tide to turn, but Milady was tired and wanted to get in, so I gave it a go. It took us 3/4 hr to get from No 4 buoy to Ballast. That's less than 3/4 mile The only way I could tell we were making progress was using transits.

All those entrances along their have similar as you well know !! Ports - Langstone - Chichester !

Got caught out to Langstone with my Alacrity when moving her from Thornham Marina to Farlington Fishing Club ...

All planned to a T ... FFC mooring had a rope and bottle marker ... so I had all the chain and buoy on foredeck ready for the job ...
As soon as she floated in Thornham we were off - SWMBO and I ... we made good time out of Chichester Hbr but weather slowed us along Hayling to Langstone ...
By time we got to Langstone entrance tide was turning (I'd planned for last of the flood or slack) ... poor old Seagull 40+ on the back even with sails up couldn't do it ... I tried hailing a fishing boat to give us a tow in ... but he just ignored us ...

Next I know is Eastham Lifeboat RIB is out and dragging us in to the ferry pontoon. Wife was in a right state ... after being in a small boat with wind over tide throwing us about !!.
Once tide had quieted down - we slipped of from the pontoon ... and made our way behind Hayling to reach the new mooring ... but of course no water !! So we had to wait for flood tide to get there. Wife was not happy at all ... so I agreed to anchor the boat and we go home ... I would finish the job next day !!

Moral of the story ... NEVER underestimate the current in / out of those harbours !!

 

[john_morris_uk]

Some the US Tug boys are downright crazy !! but this guy in the video - I have great respect for.

His point about not adhering hard and fast to rules is one that is well worth considering ... it comes down to Prudent Seamanship.

I've posted before about examination question I had for my Deck Officers Certificate .... and illustrates it well :

DTI Examiner : You are proceeding along open sea ... reasonable visibility .... let say your are proceeding North, you see another vessel on port bow in distance proceeding East. You note its a tug and tow but its not showing restricted signals. What do you do ?

Me : I take compass bearing at intervals to determine if risk of collision exists and whether we will pass clear of each other.

DTI Ex : OK - it appears from your bearings that a close 1/4's situation exists - what do you do ?

Me : Technically because he's not showing any restricted signals - I am the stand on vessel and he should turn to stbd to pass down my port side. BUT to be honest with respect to prudent seamanship - because its far easier for me to turn than him with a tow - I would make a large alteration to port sounding 1 blast Sorry ... typing too quick !! 2 blasts - that he can see clearly I am going to pass astern of his two letting him proceed.

DTI Ex : Very good. thank you - I agree its much easier for you. Next question ....

I am amazed that you weren't pulled up for turning to port. (I can only assume that the sound signal was accepted as an excuse.) Why didn't you suggest a slow down and turn to starboard? If the tug saw you at the last minute, his reaction would have been to turn to starboard with potentially disastrous consequences.

When I am examining skippers,, it's one of the questions I often ask, and turning to Port under the circumstances you've described doesn't win the candidate many points...

 

[Refueler]

I am amazed that you weren't pulled up for turning to port. (I can only assume that the sound signal was accepted as an excuse.) Why didn't you suggest a slow down and turn to starboard? If the tug saw you at the last minute, his reaction would have been to turn to starboard with potentially disastrous consequences.

When I am examining skippers,, it's one of the questions I often ask, and turning to Port under the circumstances you've described doesn't win the candidate many points...

Well - sorry but turning to stbd would significantly increase the time of situation.

I posted incorrect on sound signal - basically typing faster than brain .. I gave two blast signal ... already corrected and mentioned in previous posts.

The point is and is hammered home to all cadets and juniors up for tickets ... if you are going to make a manoeuvre - make it bold and plain to see what you have done.

If you read my post again - I make it clear on that point. .....

Right lets take your point : "Why didn't you suggest a slow down " ... ships DON'T slow down like yachts ... if I wanted to slow down on a ship - first I'd have to call the Engineers to go to Engine Room or if already there - to man the boards to adjust as I use Bridge Control IF in use. The time to do this - too long.
I've already answered the stbd turn ... all that does is prolong the situation ...

What you fail to appreciate - we are talking open sea - not Solent or some small area ... my answer is to turn and allow him to continue ... its done early and bold enough that it does not in any way create a potential problem.

As to examiner ... he was the Senior DTI Mates and Masters examiner in Southampton ... I think he has a bit more savvy than you give him credit for ...

 

[john_morris_uk]

Well - sorry but turning to stbd would significantly increase the time of situation.

I posted incorrect on sound signal - basically typing faster than brain .. I gave two blast signal ... already corrected and mentioned in previous posts.

The point is and is hammered home to all cadets and juniors up for tickets ... if you are going to make a manoeuvre - make it bold and plain to see what you have done.

If you read my post again - I make it clear on that point. .....

Right lets take your point : "Why didn't you suggest a slow down " ... ships DON'T slow down like yachts ... if I wanted to slow down on a ship - first I'd have to call the Engineers to go to Engine Room or if already there - to man the boards to adjust as I use Bridge Control IF in use. The time to do this - too long.
I've already answered the stbd turn ... all that does is prolong the situation ...

What you fail to appreciate - we are talking open sea - not Solent or some small area ... my answer is to turn and allow him to continue ... its done early and bold enough that it does not in any way create a potential problem.

As to examiner ... he was the Senior DTI Mates and Masters examiner in Southampton ... I think he has a bit more savvy than you give him credit for ...

I appreciate that ships don’t slow down, and I also appreciate that the turn to starboard would prolong things. I’ve spent more time on the bridge of (mostly warships) but some merchants ships than I care to remember and even been privileged to watch keep on some.

I also have the greatest respect for most Master Mariners and those who examine them but I’d still say, “Good luck with the court of enquiry explaining a turn to Port in the situation you describe.”

Trouble is too often can be seen from the verbatim quoters on forums like this - such is ignored or forgotten ...

Wasn't so long ago this forum was full of Power gives Way to Sail posts taken to extremes. I'd cut and paste - but my account was deleted back in the past after a tussle with a member who thought it good to fill his post with vile language ...

I don't recall anyone at any time suggesting power should always give way to sail. Within confined waters and narrow channels not impeding is the rule.

My line to sailors and small commercial vessels that I teach and examine is simple. Claiming you are 'Keeping out of the way of everything' (even when on the high seas) is just annoying for bridgewatchkeepers. They can never work out what you are pratting about at. Obey the rules because then your actions are predictable (and legal) - but be sensible and don't play chicken with larger vessels. If you are stand on and the ship isn't giving way to you, then do something about it, but don't pretend you're being helpful by dancing around all over the place. There is no 'tonnage rule' except in the good seamanship sense of seeing when another vessel is more or less manoeuvrable

 

[Refueler]

No-ones dancing about or doing hokey kokey !!

What a ridiculous extrapolation to make .....

 

[Stingo]

What's wrong with a VHF chat along the lines of "Oi, big fat tanker. Hold your course, I'll go astern of you and will keep clear"
AIS helps with a name and a direct call.. just saying

 

[Uricanejack]

I am amazed that you weren't pulled up for turning to port. (I can only assume that the sound signal was accepted as an excuse.) Why didn't you suggest a slow down and turn to starboard? If the tug saw you at the last minute, his reaction would have been to turn to starboard with potentially disastrous consequences.

When I am examining skippers,, it's one of the questions I often ask, and turning to Port under the circumstances you've described doesn't win the candidate many points...

The question and answer in refuelers example, is a classic example of the application of rule 2. Correctly explained to a MCA or DOT examiner. presumably for a higher level certificate.
Or to put it another way the application of the “Ordinary Practice of Seamen“. By one of the D.O.T. Favourites, “The Prudent Mariner”.
Which fits in with the general flavour of the OPs thread and video.

However, the sound signal blunder in front of same examiner, would likely, have resulted in a quick exist stage left. Come back in three months, young man.

The key is early and substantial. Well before the complications of last minute actions kick in.
I prefer a reduction in speed for a simillar situation.
A course alteration has the distinct advantage of being much more readily apparent.

I would ask the question, only by showing the lights or shape of a vessel.

The answer I would expect, a full description of the vessel. The better the answer the less complicated the situation will progress.

Next part of question. Seen where I choose. Eg 3 points to Port.

Answer. I expect. Take a series of compass bearings.

Steady?

Refuelers answer, Quckly and confidentially given. quite good, explanation, not unsafe, good seamanship. move on to next question
other acceptable answer. Would include speed reduction. Move on to next question.

alteration to starboard, next question why. Now we are digging a rabbit hole. stand on give way ect.

or

“stand on maintain course and speed“ Fine and dandy.

still steady?

And we go on from there. Until you have to take action. Refulers answer is no longer acceptable.
If given, the exam ends. With do not pass go, return to sea come back in three months.

Your answer is acceptable, probably will pass. but you will be quite stressed.
You miss a step, it will get worse. I will dig a rabbit hole to see just how well you understand action of a stand on vessel. Possibly finding you are at the point where action by the give way vessel alone. Will not work.

If I am being nice, I might ask at the end, if could you have done something different?

The tug and tow, was a good clue, I was looking for a rule 2. Allowing for a departure from the rules.

Easy question, it would have shown restricted.
Lights for Power Driven vessel? Refuler s exam ended quickly. I suspect, his answer would have been more as you expected.

 

[Refueler]

What's wrong with a VHF chat along the lines of "Oi, big fat tanker. Hold your course, I'll go astern of you and will keep clear"
AIS helps with a name.... just saying

Nothing ...

Just make sure you don't do as the Ven Oil Tankers did of SE Africa ..... sister ships - chatting together ... one south bound loaded .. other north bound in ballast .... one struck the other just ahead of the accommodation ...

 

[Refueler]

The question and answer in refuelers example, is a classic example of the application of rule 2. Correctly explained to a MCA or DOT examiner. presumably for a higher level certificate.
Or to put it another way the application of the “Ordinary Practice of Seamen“. By one of the D.O.T. Favourites, “The Prudent Mariner”.
Which fits in with the general flavour of the OPs thread and video.

However, the sound signal blunder in front of same examiner, would likely, have resulted in a quick exist stage left. Come back in three months, young man.

Thank you .... (the sound signal blunder was purely a mistake in the post above ..... not on the day !!).

What JM UK fails to appreciate is the Prudence part and Boldness of manoeuvre to be clear and EARLY enough ..
We are also talking about a Tug and Tow on the open sea ... which are slow and not as manoeuvrable ... so my early bold turn gives advantage to him and clears my way to return to course quickly.

No way would I ever consider a turn to port if close ... but at good distance apart as implied by the Examiners question ... I cannot of course remember his exact words all these years later but the content was enough to show he meant we were at good distance apart ... the action was deemed the act of Prudent Mariner.

Its well to note that Examiners ... here I apologise ... but am talking about DTI examiners for Ships Licences ... are looking for people who not only know, follow and understand the rules - but also know when to act prudently. If a candidate was to just verbatim recite rules and not show common sense and prudence - it would most likely fail him.
I can also say without fear of error - that DTI Examiners especially in those days would not appreciate any answer which included Calling other Vessel on VHF !! AIS was not around in those days and too many examples of incidents from wrong ships replies etc. on VHF.

There were two things burned into me when I first took up OOW on the bridge near 45yrs ago ... and cont for ~17yrs till coming ashore

1. Why do you need to be only 1 mile from another ship in all the vast ocean ???

2. If you are thinking about calling the master for a situation - you should already have done so !

 

[rotrax]

Also rules & channels for small vessels, so keeping them clear of commercial stuff most of time.

Only from the entrance to the Ballast pile. Small Craft Channel - under 20 metres. It is required to call for permission from QHM to cross from Ballast to Camber Dock or Gunwharf Quay. All craft expected to comply.

Plenty of opertunity to be in the way.........................................

 

[scotty123]

Only from the entrance to the Ballast pile. Small Craft Channel - under 20 metres. It is required to call for permission from QHM to cross from Ballast to Camber Dock or Gunwharf Quay. All craft expected to comply.

Plenty of opertunity to be in the way.........................................

It starts well outside the entrance.

 

[Refueler]

The question and answer in refuelers example, is a classic example of the application of rule 2. Correctly explained to a MCA or DOT examiner. presumably for a higher level certificate.
Or to put it another way the application of the “Ordinary Practice of Seamen“. By one of the D.O.T. Favourites, “The Prudent Mariner”.
Which fits in with the general flavour of the OPs thread and video.

However, the sound signal blunder in front of same examiner, would likely, have resulted in a quick exist stage left. Come back in three months, young man.

The key is early and substantial. Well before the complications of last minute actions kick in.
I prefer a reduction in speed for a simillar situation.
A course alteration has the distinct advantage of being much more readily apparent.

I would ask the question, only by showing the lights or shape of a vessel.

The answer I would expect, a full description of the vessel. The better the answer the less complicated the situation will progress.

Next part of question. Seen where I choose. Eg 3 points to Port.

Answer. I expect. Take a series of compass bearings.

Steady?

Refuelers answer, Quckly and confidentially given. quite good, explanation, not unsafe, good seamanship. move on to next question
other acceptable answer. Would include speed reduction. Move on to next question.

alteration to starboard, next question why. Now we are digging a rabbit hole. stand on give way ect.

or

“stand on maintain course and speed“ Fine and dandy.

still steady?

And we go on from there. Until you have to take action. Refulers answer is no longer acceptable.
If given, the exam ends. With do not pass go, return to sea come back in three months.

Your answer is acceptable, probably will pass. but you will be quite stressed.
You miss a step, it will get worse. I will dig a rabbit hole to see just how well you understand action of a stand on vessel. Possibly finding you are at the point where action by the give way vessel alone. Will not work.

If I am being nice, I might ask at the end, if could you have done something different?

The tug and tow, was a good clue, I was looking for a rule 2. Allowing for a departure from the rules.

Easy question, it would have shown restricted.
Lights for Power Driven vessel? Refuler s exam ended quickly. I suspect, his answer would have been more as you expected.

My aurals exam was over quick and with a full pass... usually there are comments by examiners after aurals .. but I was offered hand to shake and words of 'Well Done - passed'.

As you say - its easy to dig a hole for yourself in these aurals ...

 

[Stemar]

Plenty of opertunity to be in the way.........................................

Like a certain little Snapdragon whose whose fuel filter blocked just short of No 4 Buoy in a westerly 6/7.

He called QHM and asked for permission to enter under sail, hoping the answer would be, "No, the Harbour Patrol will tow you in", but the buggers said yes, go ahead. In a good westerly, you don't know if the wind is going to swirl into the entrance from the south, swirl out from the north, come straight over the fort from the west, or curl over and have a go at you from the east. It couldn'r make up it's mind, so it did all of them at different times. Impossible to keep in the small boat channel, hard enough just to keep the boat pointing and moving in the right direction. Then the Normandie came out to play, with no fricks given for the WAFI in front. Not that he had a lot of choice, TBH.

One of my more stressful moments at the helm. I now have twin filters plumbed in parallel.

 

[Refueler]

Like a certain little Snapdragon whose whose fuel filter blocked just short of No 4 Buoy in a westerly 6/7.

He called QHM and asked for permission to enter under sail, hoping the answer would be, "No, the Harbour Patrol will tow you in", but the buggers said yes, go ahead. In a good westerly, you don't know if the wind is going to swirl into the entrance from the south, swirl out from the north, come straight over the fort from the west, or curl over and have a go at you from the east. It couldn'r make up it's mind, so it did all of them at different times. Impossible to keep in the small boat channel, hard enough just to keep the boat pointing and moving in the right direction. Then the Normandie came out to play, with no fricks given for the WAFI in front. Not that he had a lot of choice, TBH.

One of my more stressful moments at the helm. I now have twin filters plumbed in parallel.

My trusty old Perkins decided to have blocked filters outside Ventspils similar .... OK - we dont have the tides but winds can be a right pain and the entrance has an evil swell across it ... entrance faces NW ... prevailing winds are SW ...

Rule here is engine only - no sailing in ... so I call HM and we know each other well ... not many sailboats here ! He says yes ... just wait for Ferry to leave ...
So we sit out there rolling and skewing around in the swell .... and finally start our way in ...

Wind then decides to back and we have to start tacking .... UGH !!



HM in the end sent out the Pilot boat !!



I offered a 'copntribution' for their help ... but they declined ...

Good guys !