The great YM debate.

[Peppermint]

The new Yachting Monthly is abuzz with fire & brimstone about fastrack YM courses.
All based on an article in which such a beast made a mistake. As a result of this honest article there would now appear to be only one sort of tar and one sort of brush. All fastrack YM's are useless, the YM qualification is devalued, only experience counts for anything. COBBLERS!

Some fastrack YM's are indeed useless while some are brilliant and most are just like us. Just like surgeons or drainage engineers there's good and bad no matter how long you train.

Experience is the thicket where those without the need, urge or nerve to take exams hide and snipe in comfort. Young guys who have an ambition to work in sailing to earn a crust don't have the luxury of hanging about building laborious mileage while being patronised by some old buffer. The RAF don't expect fast jet pilots, who are quite young, to drudge around the sky's for years in some old "Chipmunk". Learning is an intensive experience for their newcomers.

Anyone who can remember the milestone passages of their own skippering career will know that in the end you have to "put up or shut up". No matter how many crewing miles you do being skipper is a different thing. So you might as well get on with it.

I suspect that part of the ire is a result of a misconception about the YM qualification. It is not an end it is a begining. The good ones, fastrack or slow, will pass it and then spend a lifetime learning their trade and the rest will muddle along like in real life.

As one who has sailed man and boy I've got to say I've made bigger weather cock ups than this bloke, but mainly through stubborness rather than sense, I've not troubled the lifeboats. Don't make me right though, just stubborn.



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[Bergman]

Like the RAF analogy - very good

Tend to agree with most of the rest too. Always thought these tickets were a bit like passing driving test, don't mean you can drive but means you're good enough to start learning properly.



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[temptress]

Yes and no.

Not all fast track YM's are rubbish but experiance needs to be gained. You can take an 8 week YM course in the solent and never have more than a F4 to worry about. i know all the arguments but I would like to see the requirement extended to 2 or 3 years as well as the number of miles.

I spend a lot of time on the water and untill recently spent a lot of time delivering boats. Some of the most arrogant and in my view dangerous people i have come across have come from the fast track scheemes - Yet I meet lots of very good ones too. I meet more good than bad ones.

Put up any scheeme and someone will always look for a way around it. As sailing becomes more professional and unfortunately regulated these bits of paper will become more and more important.

there is no better teacher than experiance.

<hr width=100% size=1>Temptress of Down
Southsea Marina
Hants
UK

 

[Robin]

<<I suspect that part of the ire is a result of a misconception about the YM qualification. It is not an end it is a begining. >>

OK so lets issue everyone straight off with a YM ticket. The rest all can come later. YM instructors must wait an extra week, Examiners 2 weeks.

The same argument is in YW letters, one fast tracker is up for 'Yachtmaster of Year' scheme. Apparently he had never sailed before starting the course.

I need a little more convincing.

Robin
Old Buffer
The Thicket
Poole

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[GeorgeP]

How do you find the time?

The December YM arrived yesterday, before I'd finished the November one. And you have already scanned it, and produced an opinion. The Sunday Times is still waiting for me to read it (on Thursday). My boat is in Lymington because I don't have the time to sail it back to Poole.

My life is so out of balance!!

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[Robin]

Re: How do you find the time?

Bit windy tonight anyway George!

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[zephyrsailor]

Re: How do you find the time?

what page am i looking on? not had time to read it since it fell on doormat.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yachting-school.com>http://www.yachting-school.com</A></font color=purple>

 

[Cornishman]

The original conception of the Yachtmaster Certificate of Competence, to give it its proper name, was to satisfy successful candidates that they had reached a certain level of competence and that was all. It was not designed as a "qualification" to do anything. That came later when it got hijacked by the DoT as a requirement for certain types of sailing vessel over 80 grt, notably Thames Barges, which should have had officers with MN qualifications in charge.
I just wish it would return to the idea put up by the RYA when they took over the scheme in the 1970s and some other sort of certificate is required for professional and semi professionals.

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[jimi]

Agree completely the reason I did YM was to test my personal proficiency and competence as a seaman.It was not to get a certificate. I already had a Coastal Skipper one that enabled me to charter wherever I wanted.Personally I would welcome a higher entry level in terms of mileage or time or passages skippered. I know my mileage was higher than the pre requisite ... and it was virtually all as skipper.

<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

The one impression I found overwhelming again was the call from almost all feedback letters for compulsary licencing, to own and use a vessel in the UK.

When is this going to stop, those people who wish to train and obtain better skills can, if I had the time and money I would, but don't so use other methods to learn new skills, usually adhoc. This has been gone over many times on here I know, but reading YM today has almost made me ditch the subscription, I am fed up to the back teeth of people telling what to do.

Fast track yachmaster is just a name, people are seemingly getting very upset that some whipper snapper gets a certificate that took them years to train for; And they have little or no real experience. So!

You have you experience, you have your sea miles, what someone else has should be of zero consiquence to you, it makes no difference, well does it? As the skipper of your vessel, and the security of your crew, you have one duty, stop worrying and expecting everyone around you to have the same level of RYA certification. The main point, make sure you have what you consider nesessary for yourself and leave me to decide the same.

I have been thinking about this, and have come to the conclusion that 99.9% of British pleasure vessels are handled extreemely safely, we move our boats in and out of overcrowded marinas and anchorages without problems, we manage to navigate back and forth around the coast and further, and all without incident.

I think, rather than coninually stamping feet for regulation, rather a big congratulations to another season of proffessional and well mannered boat handling should be shouted from the quaysides at all the people enjoying the last free hobby that the thought police and nanny state have not ruined yet.

So, Congratulations everyone, it makes me proud to be British, well done!

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

 

[BrendanS]

Re: Nicely put! nm

<hr width=100% size=1>For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of life, please press three

 

[ColinMorris]

I could also spend 8 years building my 2500 miles and never go out in anything higher than a force 3 as I can choose when to sail and when not to. On a FASTTRAK you get what you get in the 16 weeks or so.

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[Tiger Rag]

I have been trying to think of a suitable analogy for ages and your point about the RAF works perfectly. I thought I would just add a few comments regarding the YM fastrack courses in relation to working on board private yachts where the vast majority of poeple who want to earn their living by sailing end up.

The certificate is just that, a piece of paper, nothing more, you will have virtually no chance of becoming even a junior deckhand without a YM. It is simply something that is taken as a given by prospective employers that shows willing on the part of the applicant on a par with a driving licence, the ability to speak a foreign language and being a non smoker.

This does not stop the annual crop of newly qualified "skippers" turning up here in search of fame and fortune only to be disappointed and confused that their shiny new ticket is not taken seriously, but this, in my mind, is due to some outrageously inaccurate advertising by certain schools.

If someone wishes to improve their sailing skills and earn a YM certificate then I wish them the best of luck. If someone is planning on making his/her career in yachting then do a fastrack course, get the ticket and then forget about it as you will still have many years gaining experience and more useful skills and many other exams to pass as you work your way up the ladder.





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[vyv_cox]

It\'s the name

I've said it before and I'll say it again (well, write it). If the driving licence was called the "Car-Master", the motoring forums would be full of the same arguments and objections as are raised here. Yacht-master implies a person with a great deal of experience and knowledge, e.g. Master Craftsman, Sailing Master, etc. I agree with your assessment and, in that case, a YM is little more than a yacht driving licence (with all due respect). So why does it have such an exaggerated name?

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[ParaHandy]

Re: fast track pilot ...?

.. reinforce what jotc is saying, the Humber pilots were trained in a matter of weeks on vessels less than 1,000 dwt after which they piloted vessels which were many, many orders of magnitude greater in size. What would ym's scribblers have made of that, I wonder?

(there was a rumour, I have to say, that Associated Brittish Ports allegedly instructed pilots not to report any more incidents ....)

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[BlueSkyNick]

I fully understand where you are coming from on this, and to a large extent agree with you.

However I believe that the RYA training programme has its strengths and, despite its many weaknesses, is worthwhile.

There are two aspects to gaining capability - knowledge AND experience. Part of the battle is knowing what you need to know, so you can then pro-actively seek the experience.

The YM programme can provide the knowledge and help people develop the skills, and at least a little experience.

This is a better approach, than for complete novices to simply set off and learn by experience and mistakes alone. Whilst they learn a lot, some of the consequences can have serious results.

<hr width=100% size=1>The problem is that God gave men a brain and a penis but only enough blood to use one at a time.

 

[Tiger Rag]

I agree and was only trying to point out that there seems to me two distinct types of YM candidate. Those that wisely use the scheme for exactly it's intended purpose i.e. to gain a general grounding before heading off, with more confidence, to enjoy their sailing and gain the essential experience necessary to become the true master of a yacht or to refresh their knowledge after a few years cruising.

Secondly there a number of schools/academies who have sadly recognised the market possibilites of providing young students with a speedy springboard into future employment.



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[BlueSkyNick]

Point taken - I agree totally.

<hr width=100% size=1>The problem is that God gave men a brain and a penis but only enough blood to use one at a time.

 

[temptress]

Yes that's the problem - you get a limited exposure and limited experiance. Having the information will not automaticaly bring you the knowledge.

experiance can only be gained by experiance and that takes time!

<hr width=100% size=1>Temptress of Down
Southsea Marina
Hants
UK

 

[jimi]

Experience and how you learn from it is interesting .. and divides into two camps.
1) Cope but learn and make an effort to find a better way next time
2) Muddle through and muddle through again

YMs will be found in both camps but IMHO and on paper both will have the same experience but those in 1) will be a lot more skilled than those in 2)


<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!