The Forum Burgee.

[henryf]

I propose we name it the Gary & Henry burgee... :encouragement:

No, Gary wants some design based around netball.



I wonder if only I can see what I'm typing ?

I have no desire to take over the world. I am not competing to try and gain any official right, status or association. Certainly I am not trying to oust Haydn's burgee.

Kawasaki - what more can we do other than ensure a continued supply of high quality embroidered mouse burgees with wooden toggles as has already been proposed?

I want to fly a newly designed flag which clearly says I'm an active member of the YBW forum. If others choose to join me they are more than welcome, if not no one will force them. I might end up being the only person on the planet with such a flag, I might be one of thousands, who knows?

But the current design will remain, produced as accurately as possible to reflect the original item. They will be made available to everyone, no one will be refused and I hope we will be able to maintain a stock so that they are available at all times.

In addition a great suggestion was made that window stickers be produced for people to display in their car or boat windows.

I truly am at a loss to see what is not to like about that.

The only thing I do wonder is if the mouse burgee should be offered in both toggle and non toggle versions?

Henry

 

[hlb]

So long as the original burgee remains and is reinstated to it's former magnificence in terms of construction what does it matter if some people choose to display a sign that tells everyone they post on the ybw forum ?

The poll is not an accurate reflection of the entire forum it is a tiny tiny fraction of 1 percent of the total membership. If I really thought it mattered I would vote for myself and rally others to do the same.

Henry dear. I stopped doing the burgee for a few reasons. One was because the demand had become very small. The others were due to my health.

Having seen the new version which is a total abortion of the original. I am looking at reinstating the original one.

However you have become a thorn in my side. You hijacked my simple little post, asking how the new burgee was going on, then had the arrogance to say that you could produce a better one and a better way of providing it, yet there is no evidence and little evidence that the members want a different burgee.

No one is interested in how much money you have to splash out or the professionals you can employ. The mouse was designed by a forum member, chosen by forum members and the finished result winner was provided by me. What few rules there were, were decided by the forum and were about how to provide the burgee by a forum member reasonably easily. That is the whole point about every one joining in, it would not be a club if all you did was press a button and flash the cash, that's called a business, regardless of whether it makes money or not.

As I said, I have no boat anymore. My health wont allow it. But I still have feelings for this place and all the friends I have met.

Now the problem I have now is. I don't want to go back to my guy (Also a boat owner) and ask him if he would restart the production, which was done at mates rates because the stichy man owed him money.

I will not tell him that, by the way there is some upstart going into competition for what was done for free, for a slice of
a tiny market.

Even MBY had a big mouse made to fly it on their stand at a few exhibitions. They accept that it is our flag, but they did ask if they could fly it. That's why it is special.

Henry you are endangering there being any burgee at all. Though I suppose that you could brag about how you took it over, regardless
of the consequences.

 

[Ian h]

Being a regular reader of the forums but not posting that often I can see He ray's point that he is trying to promote this wonderful forum which has a wealth of knowledge and appears to be a friendly place. People arrange forum meets which have received good response. The impression I get though is that when Haydn controlled the distribution of the burgee it was a bit elitist . It comes across that you had to be a major poster on here and be in the circle of trust.
Henry is trying to open it up to "like minded " boaters that read and contribute or just read the forums and post occasionally. To me the burgee represents a boater with similar interests . It's a sign that the owner has like minded intrest . Let's see Henry's design before it's shot down. I am sure Henry wants to encourage more people to the forum not frighten them away because they fear it's an elitist club

 

[henryf]

Thank you Ian.


Haydn

I am going to tread carefully here because given the time of your post and it's content I suspect you were not in a particularly happy place. I mean no disrespect when I say you could well have been on medication. I know you are a better man than to post when drunk.

How can I possibly be a thorn in your side?

You want to preserve the current design but don't think the current supplier is offering a good enough product. Along with another member I have pledged to try and make available a burgee of equal quality and identical design to your original. Some people have asked for a toggle to be incorporated but other than that identical.

In terms of how the burgee is made available it will not be necessary for people to send a stamped addressed envelope. The ordering process will be automated and available 24 hours a day. Not everyone on here works to GMT. Surely you can't object so far?

You have stated on several occasions that numbers were dwindling. I want to try and turn that around. Many people on here won't have been aware there even was a burgee because for much of the time they weren't available. They are now if you know who to call but as we have established the quality and method of construction isn't to everyone's liking.

How many times do I have to say I'm not doing this as a business venture. In post #75 you told me to put my money where my mouth is so I have. Some money has to be found up front to order a batch of burgees. Myself and another forum member are prepared to provide that capital. Not because we want to flash the cash or amaze people with our astounding wealth but because we care enough about the forum to want to help. The previous person who arranged burgees lost money. This clearly isn't sustainable and I'm hoping my business acumen will prevent this reoccurring. That way the burgee and it's supply can continue long into the future.

Yes, I do employ someone who would find setting up the mechanics of all this child's play. Is that a crime? Does it say in your forum rule book that we can't use our collective abilities for the greater good or to help someone out? Just because something is available on line Haydn doesn't make it a business. See it as a charity.

The bit I don't understand is your vitriol towards me when we have become unlikely bed fellows. I am going to do the very thing you want to see happen. This in spite of the fact I don't think the mouse design best signals to people the owner is a YBW forum member. But I'm a big enough chap to hear people's voices supporting the mouse and so I'm going to commit time and money to it to ensure it's survival. Actually myself and another forum member are going to do it. I'm not sure they want to step into the firing line so at this stage so I'm happy to take the flack from you.

Then there is my proposed alternative design. In post #72 you suggested I produce my own burgee, so that's what I'm going to do. Not to replace the mouse but as an alternative for those who want to show their support of the forum less cryptically. A wonderful suggestion was made that when flying both burgees together the mouse could be seen as people's gin pennant, something I hadn't heard of before but very apt given the design.

I don't consider it arrogant to question design. It's what designers do and how my mind works. In this case I saw the problem as being how to show you support the YBW forum by way of a flag. As a solution to that the mouse is too cryptic, but as a sort of secret sign to those in the know it works, hence the attempt to preserve it. But I also want to see a flag which conveys the message to those not in the know.

Finally the suggestion of window stickers was made which again seems a great idea.

I really am baffled by your comments here Haydn and think you are letting prejudice get in the way of clear thought. I consider myself an active participant in the forum, one of the many people who are helping it flourish in the modern era. Importantly I also consider myself a positive contributor. My posts tend to be glass full not glass empty posts and each post, like this one, is substantial. I am an active boater and keen to be involved in the promotion of boating as a pastime. Possibly a mirror of yourself 12 or 14 years ago? I don't know because I wasn't around then to see your involvement.


Henry

 

[rafiki_]

I have been very reluctant to enter this thread, and only do so with some trepidation. While I have met quite a few forumites over the years, mainly at SIBS and LIBS, I have met neither Haydn nor Henry, mainly due to geography. I have enjoyed forum banter with both, and am deeply sorry for the trials and tribulations that Haydn has suffered over the past few years, both in his own health and Debs passing.
I proudly own an HLB supplied pennant, but have never been aware of any elitism in HLB's supply. One only had to send a cheque and an SAE. I was not aware of any other rules of engagement. One had to be a forumite to be able to PM Haydn for his postal address, nothing more.
I quite like the mouse, and its descreteness. However, flying it has not yet resulted in a mass meeting on Rafiki, with the potential damage to her ample fridge contents, although all are welcome.
I would be very happy to see more boats flying the mouse, or if the concensus for change was there, an alternative design. It is the representation of the comraderie and value of the forum that is of most importance, and I am uncomfortable at the sniping some folk on this thread have resorted to. The Lounge is for those who wish to brawl on YBW forum, not the mobo section please.
Here endeth the lesson for today

 

[l'escargot]

...I might end up being the only person on the planet with such a flag...

Henry

I suppose you would have to drop Gary from the name then and just call it the Henry Burgee...

 

[Whitelighter]

Being a regular reader of the forums but not posting that often I can see He ray's point that he is trying to promote this wonderful forum which has a wealth of knowledge and appears to be a friendly place. People arrange forum meets which have received good response. The impression I get though is that when Haydn controlled the distribution of the burgee it was a bit elitist . It comes across that you had to be a major poster on here and be in the circle of trust.
Henry is trying to open it up to "like minded " boaters that read and contribute or just read the forums and post occasionally. To me the burgee represents a boater with similar interests . It's a sign that the owner has like minded intrest . Let's see Henry's design before it's shot down. I am sure Henry wants to encourage more people to the forum not frighten them away because they fear it's an elitist club

That's complete bollox.

It's never been elitist. All you had to do was ask and send a cheque.

Henry, you say the vote doesn't count because of the small number of responders. Let's ask who wants your flag and see if the other 6000 members (most of who me have never posted by the way) leap up and vote in favour. I suspect you'd get a similarly small response but no doubt if it supported your position then you'd claim it have you a mandate.

Or perhaps you just don't care because you are used to getting what you want

 

[pmagowan]

That's complete bollox.

It's never been elitist. All you had to do was ask and send a cheque.

Henry, you say the vote doesn't count because of the small number of responders. Let's ask who wants your flag and see if the other 6000 members (most of who me have never posted by the way) leap up and vote in favour. I suspect you'd get a similarly small response but no doubt if it supported your position then you'd claim it have you a mandate.

Or perhaps you just don't care because you are used to getting what you want

So that's a 'damned if you do damned if you don't'. I am sure he will jump at the chance.

 

[boatone]

I proudly own an HLB supplied pennant, but have never been aware of any elitism in HLB's supply. One only had to send a cheque and an SAE. I was not aware of any other rules of engagement. One had to be a forumite to be able to PM Haydn for his postal address, nothing more.

Absolutely correct. Never any hint of elitism or rolled up trouser leg qualifications.
I designed the thing in an idle moment (can't remember exactly when but well over 10 years ago) - mouse = computer mouse i.e. online forum and martini = gentle rib taking primarily of MoBos aka Gin Palaces. MoBo Forum was by far the most active in those days, Lounge didn't even exist (such bliss!).

I floated the idea, Haydn, God bless him, without so much as a by your leave blatantly abused my intellectual property rights and found his little man to make a few. Quality in my view was way better than justified for the price and as others have said blue fabric inevitably fades.

My original one has "Boatone" embroidered in the hoist area - absolutely love it, peeps stop me on the Thames and ask me if I'm "something to do with the river" !
Can't find a pic , will take one when next on the boat, but that was a special only for very favoured people and he wouldn't make me another one 'cos it caused so much aggro!

Quite distressing that such a simple issue which started as a bit of fun should now be causing so much angst. For the record, I share Haydn's view regarding the so called "new design" - absolutely awful, looks cheap and nasty.

Remember, this is not YBW's burgee - did try to get them to take ownership of it at one time but wasn't possible. It was, and is, OUR burgee.

As far as Window stickers are concerned we have one for the TMBA which I designed and had printed fairly cheaply - we charge £2.50 for 2 or £5 for 4 including postage but that's members only. Actual cost for a decent quantity comes in at under £1 each.

I agree that a new manufacturing/delivery route could be made available now - the TMBA stuff is all ordered and paid for online - and may be able to find a supplier that could give us decent product at a sensible price. However, I'm getting too old for a load of aggro so reluctant to get involved if its going to cause so much trouble!

 

[colhel]

I think all intersted parties should discuss this over a beer, after all that is what the burgee is all about.

 

[pmagowan]

What about a burgee for each forum! A scuttlebutt, PBO, motorboat etc. It could be customised with your forum name like Boatone's. It sounds like the mouse was designed for the gin palaces (runs for cover).

 

[oGaryo]

I think all intersted parties should discuss this over a beer, after all that is what the burgee is all about.

I think all existing burgees whether old quality or new style should be put in a pile and burned as clearly nobody looks at the darn things when hung from the boat.... probably best to burn them in the middle of a netball court

Before anyone takes me seriously on this, don't, if you have met me you know I haven't a serious bone in my body.

On a serious note this all seems a bit storm in a teacup to me, which is probably why so few have voted and commented. This thread is best placed in the lounge to be honest, it has all the right qualities to exist there, it's where it belongs, not in the mobo section of the forum

 

[colhel]

You're missing the point Gary. I'm trying to get a free beer. I'm a raggie.

 

[ricky_s]

Absolutely correct. Never any hint of elitism or rolled up trouser leg qualifications.
I designed the thing in an idle moment (can't remember exactly when but well over 10 years ago) - mouse = computer mouse i.e. online forum and martini = gentle rib taking primarily of MoBos aka Gin Palaces. MoBo Forum was by far the most active in those days, Lounge didn't even exist (such bliss!).

I floated the idea, Haydn, God bless him, without so much as a by your leave blatantly abused my intellectual property rights and found his little man to make a few. Quality in my view was way better than justified for the price and as others have said blue fabric inevitably fades.

My original one has "Boatone" embroidered in the hoist area - absolutely love it, peeps stop me on the Thames and ask me if I'm "something to do with the river" !
Can't find a pic , will take one when next on the boat, but that was a special only for very favoured people and he wouldn't make me another one 'cos it caused so much aggro!

Quite distressing that such a simple issue which started as a bit of fun should now be causing so much angst. For the record, I share Haydn's view regarding the so called "new design" - absolutely awful, looks cheap and nasty.

Remember, this is not YBW's burgee - did try to get them to take ownership of it at one time but wasn't possible. It was, and is, OUR burgee.

As far as Window stickers are concerned we have one for the TMBA which I designed and had printed fairly cheaply - we charge £2.50 for 2 or £5 for 4 including postage but that's members only. Actual cost for a decent quantity comes in at under £1 each.

I agree that a new manufacturing/delivery route could be made available now - the TMBA stuff is all ordered and paid for online - and may be able to find a supplier that could give us decent product at a sensible price. However, I'm getting too old for a load of aggro so reluctant to get involved if its going to cause so much trouble!

I like the sticker idea, we could have your forum "handle" on there too! Now that I would buy. HenryF, worth considering as well?

 

[oGaryo]

You're missing the point Gary. I'm trying to get a free beer. I'm a raggie.

we can sort that, beer fridge is pretty full a present, welcome on board Bizzy Bee any time to share a beer or three, even when the mouse isn't hanging from the radar arch

 

[EugeneR]

For me, the forum is where people meet to talk about boats. The purpose of the flag, as I see it, is for members to easily recognize each other on the water and, where desired, to encourage social interaction. The latter, to me, includes things such as waving, meeting, helping and possibly sharing a drink and/or meal together. Does the current flag meet this objective? To me, it suggests a drinking club more than it suggests a boating forum?

I like Haydn's idea of requiring people to show some effort, show some commitment, before advertising themselves as active members of the forum. In today's world, perhaps it would be easy to include something like 100+, 500+, 1000+ on the flag? Equally, though, we want to reduce barriers for members to obtain one, as Henry suggested, so it needs to be available online and without fear of being rejected by "someone, somewhere" - even though that was never intended, I know.

 

[ctva]

Until yesterday, I never realised that this was a mobo thread (I view the forums using the "What's New?" button so never go into individual sub-forums). It would probably be a good idea to put this in the Lounge which will give it a wider audience and probably a more balanced view. Like others have said, it's a bit off putting to see the sniping from all sides. When you sit and read the posts as an outsider you are all effectively saying the same thing but manage to construe each others side as being diametrically oppisite to yours!!

As to the question, like others I'd have got one of the last batch but missed it being posted. I woukld like a new one but having seen the quality and design of the commercial one, won't bother with that one. I do like the simplicity and subtilty of the original design. I also agree that the design should not be changed. Clubs don't chang their flags to update them with current trends but relish the 'olde worlde' charm of an antiquated design (mice?? we all use touch pads now or if we use mice they are usually tailess).

As a raggie, I never realised how argumentitive and polarised you mobo bunch appear although some of my best friends are moboers and have never displayed these traits.

 

[mersey]

...and dare I say it possibly time for a re-design. I've never been overly enamoured with the current design.

times change and sometimes a bit of a re-brand is in order. I'm not sure I see the design as being quite as sacrosanct as a union flag or emblem.

One thing I would say with the current design, it's quite delicate when viewed from afar. I would champion something bolder and more immediately obvious when viewed from a distance or the top of JFM's 40 metre superyacht. After all surely they are the boats we want to be invited on to

I see it as a design born out of what was available at the time. I'm trying to replace a little wooden club house with a purpose built brick structure that includes a bar, toilets, showers and which will weather the storms for the next 12 or 14 years.

I wonder if only I can see what I'm typing ?

I have no desire to take over the world. I am not competing to try and gain any official right, status or association. Certainly I am not trying to oust Haydn's burgee.

You "wonder if only I can see what I'm typing", and claim you are not trying to oust the original burgee? Maybe you should look back upon what you've posted earlier, which I've quoted, you have clearly stated you are trying to replace the original burgee.

 

[henryf]

You "wonder if only I can see what I'm typing", and claim you are not trying to oust the original burgee? Maybe you should look back upon what you've posted earlier, which I've quoted, you have clearly stated you are trying to replace the original burgee.

And maybe you should look at the whole 24 page debate from start to finish rather than cherry pick a few one liners out of context from the early pages.

I championed a change, listened to people's passion for the mouse design and have respected their wishes. I am trying to preserve it alongside an alternative design. What are you doing to keep it alive?

Nothing. In fact worse than that you're trying to trip up one of the people who are trying to save it.

Henry

 

[mersey]

What are you doing to keep it alive?

Nothing. In fact worse than that you're trying to trip up one of the people who are trying to save it.

I'm sorry you are now resorting to making disparaging remarks, regarding to my intentions in this debate.

I don't feel the need to defend myself against your comments, as you've put things on this level.

As such I'm bowing out of the debate.