The etiquette of buying a boat - surveys and offers...

[maby]

The "current system" cost us a lot of money a few years ago when we identified a very nice boat that ticked our boxes, commissioned a survey, paid for it plus the cost of lift-out and relaunch. When we got the survey back, it uncovered significant defects in the boat which the seller had - by their own admission - been aware of, but not declared. We did invite them to have the defects fixed professionally after which we would purchase at the previously agreed price, but they declined and continued to advertise the boat.

I'm not sure what the solution is - no government is going to put in place legislation similar to houses with information packs - even if they would address the issues. We resolved it by making the decision to only purchase new boats direct from the manufacturer.

 

[jac]

Yep, you're correct on the week long chartering aspect, that wouldn't be viable. I initially was thinking of a trial (as opposed to test) sail where the broker accompanied, for longer it becomes horrendously complicated so probably a non-starter.

As for the risks, the key one is the lack of a definitive way of looking for charges/liens against a boat, I was stunned when I found out that you effectively never know, that's ridiculous in its current state.

The other one is coming back to the test sail, not all boats are the same, so there is always risk, I feel the balance is in favour of the seller in that the buyer can't walk away if they simply don't like a boat they've not had the opportunity to sail before.

Anyway, we disagree, but at least you put up some good reasoned points about why my ideas may not work, rather than simply getting angry, so I appreciate the debate!

Are you confusing sea trial and test sail?

A Test sail is what usually happens with new boats where a saleman will point out the obvious and no-one ends up any the wiser. You might use it to say you just don't like a certain boat. A Sea Trial will be for a second hand boat and usually involves the owner, the prospective owner and any experts the prospective owner wishes to bring along. It's role is to test all systems and make sure that it all works. It's also a handy opportunity for the old owner to start passing on their knowledge / wisdom.

The second is standard. The first is a complete nightmare to manage for a second hand boat. At some stage you either have to code the boat and skipper if you're going to take money for it, or take no money, view it as part of the sales process and accept that many people will have no real interest in buying that yacht. I've always fancied a go on a large gaffer but would never buy one. I could show I could afford one, show i'd just sold my boat and would look v serious to all intents and purposes then go out for a spin and say not for me thanks. I'll stick to my AWB. At some stage, that cost has to be paid.

As for not all boats being the same, you're right. But a Bav 36 is a Bav 36. AN Elan 37 is an Elan 37. If you charter the same model you will get the basics of whether or not you like the boat - anything else is just set up and can be changed. There may be minor differences but I suspect that most people will be hard pushed to really tell.

IF buying an AWB I'm not sure how many people actually don't like the boat they buy and if a test sail would fix that. If she's sluggish and the wind looks good- buy better sails - sea trial will highlight that but should be evident from the inventory. If they are brand new laminates then they'll be good. If the yare 20 year old original el cheapo dacrons then they won't & the price should reflect that.

Is the rig set up correctly? It would be a shame if you rejected the boat because the backstay wasn't on tight enough. It's a 10 second £0 fix.

Helming / crewing position - you can tell from looking around the boat.

I'm struggling to find out what tangibly you would find out that couldn't be found out elsewhere anyway.

Re charges and liens - not sure where that has come from. I would agree it is a risk but how likely is it? I've never heard of it actually happening as brokers should check when they sell. It could be most easily covered by brokers offering insurance against it - ideally stand alone, but I suspect it would not be a viable product as I suspect volume would be low.

 

[Concerto]

A fantastic example of exactly what I was talking about, thank you for demonstrating my point about resistance to change so clearly.

You seem so intent on trying to change a system that currently works for both buyer and seller. This system has safeguards for both buyer and seller. Maybe it is your ignorance about boats in general that should be addressed. Go and get some experience on a variety of boats to see what you like. This can be done by chartering, taking sailing courses or joining a club and sailing on other peoples boats. Experience is something you gain whilst doing something else, and you desparately need some more experience as many of your comments and changes in ideas clearly show your lack of understanding of how secondhand boat sales are conducted.

Over the 50+ years I have been sailing, I have seen many major improvements to the way secondhand boats are sold. In the past the only was to advertise a boat for sale was a card in a yacht club or chandler, a line entry advert in a yachting magazine or with a broker. You rarely saw any photographs, you had to visit the boat where ever it was (usually on a mooring as there were virtually no marinas). My father once listed his boat in a yachting magazine in 1970 and on the day of publication he had an enquiry from Scotland and he drove down to view 2 days later and agreed to buy without a survey as it was only 3 years old. We arranged transport with a yacht transport company and for the hire of a crane to lift the boat from the water straight on to the low loader. We did all this on his behalf as he was not there and from the first contact to lifting the boat was under a week.

Now days you can view many boats at the touch of a button from the comfort of your chair. Photographs are reasonable representations of what a boat looks like, but do not give you a feel of the exact space or condition. The only way you can do that is to visit the boat. This change has radically changed the way secondhand boats are now offered and many new internet only brokers have sprung up.

No matter what you think it still comes back to a seller and a buyer agreeing terms. Others have clearly shown your "ideas" to change the system are impractible or impossible to implement. No agent will bear any costs to protect a buyer as he is employed by the seller, no different to a house agent. Surveys are conducted to assist the buyer to be aware of faults the surveyor can see, but not those he cannot see, again no different from a full house survey.

It is strange how you ignored my comment about having to prove you have the cash to buy a boat as this is little different from getting a mortgage in place before looking at houses.

Let me now show how fast a boat can be purchased. I bought my current boat privately after viewing several with agents. It had been out of the water for 18 months in a yacht club yard. I agreed a price when I first viewed it and paid a deposit subject to survey (not held by an agent in an escrue account!). I contacted my surveyor the same day and he was able to do the survey the following day. Nothing major was found in the survey, but chatting with him was very useful as I learnt a few things that I had missed, however I still disagree with a couple of his recommendations as unnecessary. The following day I had a digital copy of the report and a hard copy a day later. The vendor was unavailable for a couple of days, so from purchase to completion was 5 days. The only slight problem was I had to join the yacht club to keep the boat there whilst I completed some improvements. This worked out far cheaper than launching it and lifting it out at the marina to complete the work. How else could this transaction have been simplified or improved? I doubt if an agent had been used the transaction would have been any different.

I had never been on any of this model of boat in the water, let alone tried it under engine or sail. It was recommendations and comments from published test reports that made this unnecessary, and since then I agree with the comments about handling under sail and power.

I still cannot see what needs to be changed in the current agent system. There will always be good agents and useless agents, but forums like this will readily advise on good agents but bad agents will only continue to trade if ignorant people deal with them. Innovations to the selling/buying process are very unlikely to change in the next few decades as it has been found by most buyers and sellers to work in both their interests. Changes to make it one sided are highly unlikely. The biggest changes we shall see relate to supply and demand making price alterations in the market, or put simply, the market makes the prices.

 

[jwilson]

A competent skipper can do a lot to "tailor" the impressions a potential buyer receives from a "test sail" as often conducted with new production boats. Those doing it all the time will soon recognise the nervous (avoid heeling much and rough bits), and make sure berthing again looks effortless (he's been in and out of that berth 100 times this year).

 

[vjmehra]

Are you confusing sea trial and test sail?

A Test sail is what usually happens with new boats where a saleman will point out the obvious and no-one ends up any the wiser. You might use it to say you just don't like a certain boat. A Sea Trial will be for a second hand boat and usually involves the owner, the prospective owner and any experts the prospective owner wishes to bring along. It's role is to test all systems and make sure that it all works. It's also a handy opportunity for the old owner to start passing on their knowledge / wisdom.

The second is standard. The first is a complete nightmare to manage for a second hand boat. At some stage you either have to code the boat and skipper if you're going to take money for it, or take no money, view it as part of the sales process and accept that many people will have no real interest in buying that yacht. I've always fancied a go on a large gaffer but would never buy one. I could show I could afford one, show i'd just sold my boat and would look v serious to all intents and purposes then go out for a spin and say not for me thanks. I'll stick to my AWB. At some stage, that cost has to be paid.

As for not all boats being the same, you're right. But a Bav 36 is a Bav 36. AN Elan 37 is an Elan 37. If you charter the same model you will get the basics of whether or not you like the boat - anything else is just set up and can be changed. There may be minor differences but I suspect that most people will be hard pushed to really tell.

IF buying an AWB I'm not sure how many people actually don't like the boat they buy and if a test sail would fix that. If she's sluggish and the wind looks good- buy better sails - sea trial will highlight that but should be evident from the inventory. If they are brand new laminates then they'll be good. If the yare 20 year old original el cheapo dacrons then they won't & the price should reflect that.

Is the rig set up correctly? It would be a shame if you rejected the boat because the backstay wasn't on tight enough. It's a 10 second £0 fix.

Helming / crewing position - you can tell from looking around the boat.

I'm struggling to find out what tangibly you would find out that couldn't be found out elsewhere anyway.

Re charges and liens - not sure where that has come from. I would agree it is a risk but how likely is it? I've never heard of it actually happening as brokers should check when they sell. It could be most easily covered by brokers offering insurance against it - ideally stand alone, but I suspect it would not be a viable product as I suspect volume would be low.

Just specifically on the charges/liens element, I believe it is rare, but it's a huge risk that could be life changing for someone on the wrong end of a charge. I don't think it's remotely fair buyers absorb this risk.

 

[vjmehra]

You seem so intent on trying to change a system that currently works for both buyer and seller. This system has safeguards for both buyer and seller. Maybe it is your ignorance about boats in general that should be addressed. Go and get some experience on a variety of boats to see what you like. This can be done by chartering, taking sailing courses or joining a club and sailing on other peoples boats. Experience is something you gain whilst doing something else, and you desparately need some more experience as many of your comments and changes in ideas clearly show your lack of understanding of how secondhand boat sales are conducted.

Over the 50+ years I have been sailing, I have seen many major improvements to the way secondhand boats are sold. In the past the only was to advertise a boat for sale was a card in a yacht club or chandler, a line entry advert in a yachting magazine or with a broker. You rarely saw any photographs, you had to visit the boat where ever it was (usually on a mooring as there were virtually no marinas). My father once listed his boat in a yachting magazine in 1970 and on the day of publication he had an enquiry from Scotland and he drove down to view 2 days later and agreed to buy without a survey as it was only 3 years old. We arranged transport with a yacht transport company and for the hire of a crane to lift the boat from the water straight on to the low loader. We did all this on his behalf as he was not there and from the first contact to lifting the boat was under a week.

Now days you can view many boats at the touch of a button from the comfort of your chair. Photographs are reasonable representations of what a boat looks like, but do not give you a feel of the exact space or condition. The only way you can do that is to visit the boat. This change has radically changed the way secondhand boats are now offered and many new internet only brokers have sprung up.

No matter what you think it still comes back to a seller and a buyer agreeing terms. Others have clearly shown your "ideas" to change the system are impractible or impossible to implement. No agent will bear any costs to protect a buyer as he is employed by the seller, no different to a house agent. Surveys are conducted to assist the buyer to be aware of faults the surveyor can see, but not those he cannot see, again no different from a full house survey.

It is strange how you ignored my comment about having to prove you have the cash to buy a boat as this is little different from getting a mortgage in place before looking at houses.

Let me now show how fast a boat can be purchased. I bought my current boat privately after viewing several with agents. It had been out of the water for 18 months in a yacht club yard. I agreed a price when I first viewed it and paid a deposit subject to survey (not held by an agent in an escrue account!). I contacted my surveyor the same day and he was able to do the survey the following day. Nothing major was found in the survey, but chatting with him was very useful as I learnt a few things that I had missed, however I still disagree with a couple of his recommendations as unnecessary. The following day I had a digital copy of the report and a hard copy a day later. The vendor was unavailable for a couple of days, so from purchase to completion was 5 days. The only slight problem was I had to join the yacht club to keep the boat there whilst I completed some improvements. This worked out far cheaper than launching it and lifting it out at the marina to complete the work. How else could this transaction have been simplified or improved? I doubt if an agent had been used the transaction would have been any different.

I had never been on any of this model of boat in the water, let alone tried it under engine or sail. It was recommendations and comments from published test reports that made this unnecessary, and since then I agree with the comments about handling under sail and power.

I still cannot see what needs to be changed in the current agent system. There will always be good agents and useless agents, but forums like this will readily advise on good agents but bad agents will only continue to trade if ignorant people deal with them. Innovations to the selling/buying process are very unlikely to change in the next few decades as it has been found by most buyers and sellers to work in both their interests. Changes to make it one sided are highly unlikely. The biggest changes we shall see relate to supply and demand making price alterations in the market, or put simply, the market makes the prices.

Apologies I completely missed your point about proving cash upfront as with a house purchase, but I completely agree with you. I don't see why boat purchases shouldn't go through the (sometimes frustrating but understandable these days) AML procedures we all have to now!

However elsewhere you say how you've seen the process change over the years, but then say you don't feel the process needs to be changed. Whilst not contradictory, it's surprising that someone who accepts that change has been good refuses to accept that it should continue (or am I misreading and you agree change would be good but feel it's unlikely)?

 

[jac]

Apologies I completely missed your point about proving cash upfront as with a house purchase, but I completely agree with you. I don't see why boat purchases shouldn't go through the (sometimes frustrating but understandable these days) AML procedures we all have to now!

However elsewhere you say how you've seen the process change over the years, but then say you don't feel the process needs to be changed. Whilst not contradictory, it's surprising that someone who accepts that change has been good refuses to accept that it should continue (or am I misreading and you agree change would be good but feel it's unlikely)?

Not wishing to speak for concerto but I do agree that change is usually for the better and that i'm fairly certain that the process will be improved in future.

That is completely different to saying that I support YOUR changes.

I disagree with your analysis of what the problems are and I even disagree that your solutions would address them any better than the existing process.

 

[jac]

Just specifically on the charges/liens element, I believe it is rare, but it's a huge risk that could be life changing for someone on the wrong end of a charge. I don't think it's remotely fair buyers absorb this risk.

But it's no different to buying anything else.

If you buy a house you do searches. ( well your solicitor does)

As soon as they are done, they are out of date. Something could then come along and blight the value of your house and you would be impacted.

With a boat - for a marine mortgage to exist she will need to be part 1 registered which AIUI has details of mortgages included. Other finance to purchase is usually a personal loan.

The boat could have been arrested with charges / liens put in place for unpaid mooring fees for example but these are then usually sold by the boatyard / marina so you should be fine. Brokers again should establish that there aren't any and they will be covered by insurance so even if there are some and you don't know about them you should be fine for the 0.00001% of cases when it happens.


This is really a theoretical risk. My house may get by a meteorite tonight and kill all of us but I haven't specified a toughened shelter to remove that risk entirely.

 

[vjmehra]

But it's no different to buying anything else.

If you buy a house you do searches. ( well your solicitor does)

As soon as they are done, they are out of date. Something could then come along and blight the value of your house and you would be impacted.

With a boat - for a marine mortgage to exist she will need to be part 1 registered which AIUI has details of mortgages included. Other finance to purchase is usually a personal loan.

The boat could have been arrested with charges / liens put in place for unpaid mooring fees for example but these are then usually sold by the boatyard / marina so you should be fine. Brokers again should establish that there aren't any and they will be covered by insurance so even if there are some and you don't know about them you should be fine for the 0.00001% of cases when it happens.


This is really a theoretical risk. My house may get by a meteorite tonight and kill all of us but I haven't specified a toughened shelter to remove that risk entirely.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I thought for non-marine mortgages (i.e. other charges/liens) on a boat, brokers search but always state it's not their liability?

For houses the solicitor is liable if they've missed a charge aren't they?

That's the key difference, I thought, but may be wrong!

 

[maby]

But it's no different to buying anything else.

If you buy a house you do searches. ( well your solicitor does)

....

That is only true to a limited extent because the cost of the survey can be so much higher than it is with a house. In our case which I described above, we lost in excess of a thousand pounds due to the seller trying to conceal defects that he was aware of. The survey alone cost us around £500 and we then had to pay for the lift out and relaunch - another £500-odd at Hamble prices - all to discover that there was damage to the keel joint and other structural damage. We invited the seller to get the defects rectified professionally with a warranty on the work, but they declined and our deposit was returned. After that, we decided to avoid the second hand market and only buy new - it's not a guarantee of zero defects, but the major boat builders are likely to still be there to honour any warranty they give.

 

[Resolution]

Thanks to jac, concerto and others for helping to support me in defending the present system and rebutting the changes vj (and Steve?) have proposed. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" does seem appropriate.
However we old lags should perhaps stop and ask ourselves why two relative newcomers have picked up a first impression that the boat brokerage industry is badly-structured and not helpful to new potential customers. What has caused this and is it fair?
Peter

 

[Resolution]

After that, we decided to avoid the second hand market and only buy new - it's not a guarantee of zero defects, but the major boat builders are likely to still be there to honour any warranty they give.

And of course by buying from a dealer (or anyone else trading as a business) you do also get the benefit of UK Consumer law (Sale of Goods Act as was).

 

[vjmehra]

Thanks to jac, concerto and others for helping to support me in defending the present system and rebutting the changes vj (and Steve?) have proposed. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" does seem appropriate.
However we old lags should perhaps stop and ask ourselves why two relative newcomers have picked up a first impression that the boat brokerage industry is badly-structured and not helpful to new potential customers. What has caused this and is it fair?
Peter

Interesting take, I'll keep quiet now and watch what comes up, thank you for appreciating the concerns (whether valid or not) and making an effort to understand the causes.

 

[jac]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I thought for non-marine mortgages (i.e. other charges/liens) on a boat, brokers search but always state it's not their liability?

For houses the solicitor is liable if they've missed a charge aren't they?

That's the key difference, I thought, but may be wrong!

You may be right - i'll let a broker answer, My issue is with scale. A lien would have to be agreed by the court. Apart from marine mortgages, I don't believe that the courts will agree many liens on yachts that wouldn't be ordinarily transparent.

I'm fairly certain that when I put our boat up for sale I had to sign a declaration saying no charges etc on the boat. Brokers will search as well as a check, but in the same way that if a search on a property is done but reveals nothing, the solicitor is not liable as they have acted properly.

COuld the process re liens be made more transparent and simple? - I'm sure it could. But this isn't a massive risk.

 

[jac]

Thanks to jac, concerto and others for helping to support me in defending the present system and rebutting the changes vj (and Steve?) have proposed. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" does seem appropriate.
However we old lags should perhaps stop and ask ourselves why two relative newcomers have picked up a first impression that the boat brokerage industry is badly-structured and not helpful to new potential customers. What has caused this and is it fair?
Peter

My take is that bad news sells.

Brokers must sell hundreds of boats a year. Buyers must view thousands. by definition the ratio of "No" after a viewing to "yes" after a viewing must be many to 1 so of those "Nos" some will be horror stories. The boat that has been neglected for months with mould growing, the seller trying to pull a fast one, the broker to busy to respond, the tyre kicking buyers who spent 5 mins on board and then left. The perfectionist buyers who listed every stain on a 30 year old £10k 40 footer and demanded a discount before even putting in an offer.

Whatever you venture into in life, as soon as you mention you are doing something, the war stories will come out. Buying a boat is a large purchase for most people, emotion is involved. No reason why it shouldn't be any different to anything else in it's production of war stories.

 

[Lucky Duck]

I'm fairly certain that when I put our boat up for sale I had to sign a declaration saying no charges etc on the boat. Brokers will search as well as a check, but in the same way that if a search on a property is done but reveals nothing, the solicitor is not liable as they have acted properly.

In property transactions each party usually appoints a legal representative to protect their interests yet reading house sale related forums reveals that things quite often get missed.

 

[Concerto]

However elsewhere you say how you've seen the process change over the years, but then say you don't feel the process needs to be changed. Whilst not contradictory, it's surprising that someone who accepts that change has been good refuses to accept that it should continue (or am I misreading and you agree change would be good but feel it's unlikely)?

There have been many changes in the way secondhand boat sales are conducted over the past 50 years. These have been due to new technology, mainly digital photos and the internet. These have altered the selling process for the better, but at this moment in time I cannot see any way with current methods or technologies that can improve the basic process from agreeing a price through to completion, with safeguards for both parties. The system in place has evolved to the mutual satisfaction of both buyers and sellers. In a perfect world every boat would be offered in pristine condition for its age, along with no faults, it should be out of the water so it can be viewed at any time (or in a marina berth if it has to be afloat). These days most buyers do not want a trip in a dinghy to see a boat on a mooring, this so different to 30 to 50 years ago.

As a general rule I have found the boats on sale in the Solent are well looked after with plenty of extras, but with a slighty higher price than elsewhere. The prices do drop the further north you go. My brother once bought a boat in Scotland and had it roaded south as it was cheaper than buying in the south of England.

Do try and get more experience on different boats as it will assist you once you decide to buy a boat. There are plenty of people who give sound advice on this forum and on specific boat owner forums. We all have our personal preferences, some people like long keels, sturdy traditional cruisers, modern cruisers and racing craft. So find out which direction you prefer and then ask for specific advice to help you find a boat to meet your needs. Sailing is a great sport, so do join in.

 

[jonic]

There have been many changes in the way secondhand boat sales are conducted over the past 50 years. These have been due to new technology, mainly digital photos and the internet. These have altered the selling process for the better, but at this moment in time I cannot see any way with current methods or technologies that can improve the basic process from agreeing a price through to completion, with safeguards for both parties. The system in place has evolved to the mutual satisfaction of both buyers and sellers. In a perfect world every boat would be offered in pristine condition for its age, along with no faults, it should be out of the water so it can be viewed at any time (or in a marina berth if it has to be afloat). These days most buyers do not want a trip in a dinghy to see a boat on a mooring, this so different to 30 to 50 years ago.

As a general rule I have found the boats on sale in the Solent are well looked after with plenty of extras, but with a slighty higher price than elsewhere. The prices do drop the further north you go. My brother once bought a boat in Scotland and had it roaded south as it was cheaper than buying in the south of England.

Do try and get more experience on different boats as it will assist you once you decide to buy a boat. There are plenty of people who give sound advice on this forum and on specific boat owner forums. We all have our personal preferences, some people like long keels, sturdy traditional cruisers, modern cruisers and racing craft. So find out which direction you prefer and then ask for specific advice to help you find a boat to meet your needs. Sailing is a great sport, so do join in.

Agreed.

.....now who can spot the forum reference in the video at https://youtu.be/eUeZcVEo3Og :encouragement:

 

[jac]

Agreed.

.....now who can spot the forum reference in the video at https://youtu.be/eUeZcVEo3Og :encouragement:

I did spot that the first aid kit was upside down which could be a metaphor for the forum, turning real life on it's head.

Mind you I was rubbish at English A level so that may not be it.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I did spot that the first aid kit was upside down...

So did I is that sad or what?