Resolution
Well-Known Member
Agree.
The etiquette of buying a boat - surveys and offers...
- Thread starter Kukri
- Start date
Agree.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
There appeared to be school of thought that the seller (or their agent) should be absorbing these costs.
Grumpybear
Well-Known Member
That might be a useful marketing pitch for a desperate vendor, but if the boat is potentially a good buy, why should they? To me this is just another example of an attempt to impose compulsory avoidance of risk for its own sake in the absence of any clear justification.
maby
Well-Known Member
Surely this is a case of common sense and pragmatism, isn't it? Boats (both new and second hand) do not seem to fly off the shelves these days - I've seen apparently nice boats up for sale for multiple years. I do appreciate that many owners do not live particularly close to their boats and, for them, granting a test sail could be quite disruptive or expensive. But if you live reasonably close to your boat and there is a potential purchaser who wants to see it in motion for an hour or two, doe it not make sense to cooperate?
I see boats sitting on marina berths unused with "For sale" signs up for multiple years at prices of a few tens of thousands of pounds - those berths are costing several thousand pounds per year - but the owner does not reduce the price or go to any significant lengths to promote the sale - just does not make any sense!
jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
Again true and it happens now, if the seller is prepared to do it, there is no issue. Equally some sellers will want the full costs of any such test sail, again no issue.
It is after all a contract between two individuals and what works for them is what matters. I would hate there to be any sort of compulsion/legislation that interferes with those negotiations.
Personally speaking when I sold my boat it was priced competitively and sold very quickly. Because it was in Greece on the hard and I was in Spain a test sail was out never going to happen and the buyer did not want one anyway. But if he had I suppose I could have arranged for the lift out and in,plus a skipper for the day, plus costs of putting sails etc back on, costs would have been close to a thousand pounds and I would want that upfront with no refund of it even if the buyer bought the boat.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
Don't disagree but the comment made quite often here is that a potential buyer should be able to arrange a test sail much in the same way they can go for a test drive with a second hand car.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
As noted earlier in the thread mine last boat was sold subject to a limited sail trial, it delayed the sale but almost two months due to the yard's commitments and I don't think it helped the buyers particularity either.
If the boat was in commission then it wouldn't have been so difficult but they would have had to pay for a lift to carry out the survey.
jac
Well-Known Member
the other issue is location. Turn up at a garage and the car is there. Buy privately and the car is there.
a 20 minute test drive takes 20 minutes.
Turn up at brokers office and boat could be 20 minutes away. If owner to demo then the ycould be 3-4 hour drive away. Even if local - by the time the lines have been removed, sails bent on, etc it will be 30 minutes before the boat is underway. add some time to motor to clear water, raise sails, sail around a bit, motor back, put boat to bed - If you can do it in less than 3 hours then I will be impressed. In that - what will the prospective purchaser actually learn.
Grumpybear
Well-Known Member
They can. The issue seems to be that some posters would like to see the vendor or broker obliged to provide and pay for this service, for anyone who expresses an interest, without evidence of commitment such as, errrr, a deposit.
jac
Well-Known Member
You are right but if you sit / stand at the wheel you will know if you can see ahead.
If you sit on the rail to see the luff can you reach the wheel.
If you are steering - can you reach / read the instruments.
if you are steering - can you reach the winches.
The basic geometry doesn't change just because of the heel.
What you can't test of course is things like - does the genny get hung up on something when you tack.
How good is visibility when we are heeled.
How safe / comfortable do I feel in this cockpit when heeled at 20 degrees and sat to leeward.
maby
Well-Known Member
It's a case of "each to their own" - personally, I would not consider handing over well on the way to a quarter of a million quid for a boat that I've never sailed on. That may put off a number of sellers, but there remain plenty who are so desperate for the business that they will do almost anything to get the sale!
Blue Sunray
Well-Known Member
:encouragement: However equally there are those vendors and (to a lesser extent I think) brokers who seem happy to stamp their feet and say 'that's not the way we do things' and then seem to wonder why their boats don't sell.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
I am in the middle of buying a boat - which is why I started this thread (fyi I offered the asking price) and I have called for a trial sail in accordance with Clause 4(a)(ii) of the ABYA standard form.
The brokers have deleted 4(a) (i) which permits a buyer to reject on grounds of "performance, handling or seaworthiness", and I am happy with that. 4 (a) (ii) covers "matters which would not reasonably become apparent on inspection/survey" and I have in fact listed the things that I want to see working.
In other words - I can form my own ideas about how she will sail, and so on, but whether the engine is up to much, whether the yottitronics work, and so on, should be demonstrated.
The brokers have deleted 4(a) (i) which permits a buyer to reject on grounds of "performance, handling or seaworthiness", and I am happy with that. 4 (a) (ii) covers "matters which would not reasonably become apparent on inspection/survey" and I have in fact listed the things that I want to see working.
In other words - I can form my own ideas about how she will sail, and so on, but whether the engine is up to much, whether the yottitronics work, and so on, should be demonstrated.
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Resolution
Well-Known Member
jwilson
Well-Known Member
The rejection clause " ....on grounds of performance, handling and seaworthiness" primarily applies to high-powered motorboats. If I was buying such (wouldn't dream of it) I would certainly want a sea trial. You want to know if it can really reach 40 knots, just how noisy it is at a pottering-along 25 knots, and whether it slams horribly in the slightest chop or chine-rides - this last a truly horrible trait of some examples.
Almost the only sailing yachts that merit such a rejection clause are unknown, little known or amateur designs, or amateur builds where the builder has deviated from the design.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
That makes perfect sense. And in the case of an elderly wooden one off, the very survival of the boat tells you that she sails well enough.
superheat6k
Well-Known Member
It seems to me the only grounds you have for rejection are severe non-function - if the various things you have listed work thats it, and presumably if some minor things do not the vendor will either have to fix them or accept a price drop to cover - but likely not sufficient grounds to repudiate the contract, if for instance you simply decide you do not like the way of the boat. Simply seeing things working, does not mean you will like the boat or how she handles. I appreciate this thread has run and run, but what is / was wrong with you placing your terms in, just has the broker has struck out at least one he does not like. I am not sure the standard contract mentions specifically motor boats in regard to clause 4 (a) (i) - which I have not read.
As I have said already the broker may not like it, but I doubt he has a queue at his door to buy the boat, especially at the full AP. You hold or at least held, assuming you have signed the contract, the strongest position.
I do wish you well with your purchase and hope all goes well with your sea trial.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
But surely each boat purchase is unique-as are the purchasers.
I have purchased 3 yachts in the last 9 years. Because I trust my knowlege of boats and their equipment I self surveyed, only the first-and by far the cheapest-was on the hard.
The first was a Gilbert Marine built Gibsea 96. Well used, 20 years old, new sails, old engine with raw water cooling but in good running order. I could tell the owners had lavished care on it. It cost under 25K.
The second, an Island Packet 350 was in the water but was presented really well. The Broker was not up to much, but the vessel was the right price and had recently crossed the pond from Florida. The inherent quality of IP yachts showed in this 9 year old example which cost 85K. Six years later jonic of this parish found a buyer who, like me, was confident in his ability and judgement of boats not to require a survey. It was sold for a little more than we paid, but with plenty of upgrades.
The third was in May this year, jonic handling the conveyancing for us. This was a newer more expensive vessel-150K- another IP, with the same quality build. Although 8 years old it had been on a buoy or alongside for the last 5 years and had had little use. Only 260 hours on the engine.
It was poorly presented, filthy dirty and with several worrying issues. Happily these were easily and simply resolved with little cash required to put them right. The initial contact through a broker proved the broker to be a total waster. The vesel was purchased over 3 years later direct from the owner. All the broker ever did for the owner was to give me the owners 'phone number so I could arrange to view, and this after continual chasing and the lack of promised return 'phone calls.
I was happy to go ahead with purchase after viewing the vessel 4 times in 3 years. I fact I feel I saved it from further decline!
Just so you know, last weekend an owner of a £400,000 motorboat in Chichester Marina asked me if it was a new boat. He was most surprised to learn of its history.
I supose that my working life gave me the ability to look through a badly presented boat, car or motorbike to see what might lie underneath-fixing rusty wrecks of pre war motorbikes gives one a bit of insight.
It is very possible that had I been buying another make of boat with perhaps lower spec build materials and resins or with balsa cores I may have looked for expert advice. Knowing IP build quality I felt confident that I would find no major issues. As far as sailing performance goes, the iphomeport is a forum for IP owners and I found out what I needed to from this excellent resource.
My approach will not work for everyone, but it works for me.
So far anyway...................................
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maby
Well-Known Member
I was thinking less about condition and more about whether or not I would like the boat. Our boat is a floating home for us - performance is relatively unimportant, but comfortable sailing and living is extremely important. It cost almost as much as our house - I want to be sure that we are going to be very comfortable in it both under way and moored up. Hence, we expected to be able to spend a lot of time on it before committing - Beneteau were happy to cooperate.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
I understand-the same applied to our purchase, for the same reasons.
However, the experience First Mate and I have gained durning the 14 years of our sailing experience led us to the conclusion that our choice was the right one, despite no sea trial. All the sailing shortcomings were known-massive sailing leeway, poor performance upwind and high windage due to the huge pilothouse.
We had explored the model extensively, visiting the SIBS demo models, visiting and talking to owners and taking advice and answers to posed questions on the iphomeport.
So far it exceeds our expectations, especially in upwind sailing, due no doubt to the virtually new sails. If the wind wont serve it has a 110HP Turbodiesel Yanmar 16 valve engine-which is surprisingly frugal.
As I said, we had been considering the jump for three years-the deteriation of the chosen vessel during this time did bring the price within reach-at the start of the process it was a bit of a dream. The purchase used all our cash and was a close run thing. The vendor would have had to put serious time and/or money into the vessel to achieve its potential value.
He preffered to take our offer and move on, which was fantastic for us.
