The etiquette of buying a boat - surveys and offers...

[Leighb]

I am in the final stage of buying a boat, money has changed hands just waiting for the final paperwork.
I made an initial offer below the asking price after viewing the boat to cover some obvious deficiencies, the offer was accepted "subject to Survey"
The surveys, Hull and Engines, were done and some significant faults were found.
Significant Osmosis, undeclared, but in fact known to the vendor as shown by viewing previous surveys.
A seized turbo on one engine which also had knackered engine mountings, both of these and especially the latter probably known by the vendor.

I discussed these with the broker and suggested a suitable reduction to the offer price, and a figure close to that was accepted so the deal was done.
The brokers had a 5% clause in the initial contract which seems reasonable as it stops buyers from petty niggles about relatively small sums.

 

[Kukri]

Thanks to everyone who replied. The responses are very helpful to me in deciding what to do.

I work in merchant shipowning. The Norwegian Saleform which we use to buy and sell ships is the "parent" of the YBBDSA standard contract in use in the UK for yachts. Ships are bought and sold with no survey taking place before the offer, but a difference is that ships of any size are always "in class" with a Classification Society, and it is the Class Society who decides what does or does not need repair.

Having said that, in merchant ship sale and purchase there is always a "haggle factor", because if the seller's "first idea" were ever accepted he would accuse his broker of under pricing his ship. Offers are usually made with a short validity - twenty minutes is not unusual.

 

[superheat6k]

Often the AP has little relation to a boat's actual value, I.e. What someone will pay for it.

Also as the buyer you are in the strongest position.

I assessed the value of my current boat by establishing its top price in A1 condition then worked out how much cost and time it would take to get it there. Deduct the latter from the former and you will have the price limit, then base your offer around that. The difference between that and the AP can be substantial, especially if the boat has been suffering Old Man Neglect Syndrome. Mine was 42% below the over inflated AP.

Also because you are not generally allowed to sea trial a boat pre purchase deposit being paid, I feel it is perfectly fair and sensible that you have an opt out to walk away with your deposit (less any direct costs incurred by the vendor of course) if you discover you just do not like the boat, or and in particular if you find things that are misleading or should have been obvious and therefore disclosed. Brokers don't like it, but they are being paid by the vendor, and you hold the cash. If you do not like a Broker's terms strike them out and add in your own, and before the deposit is paid.

If you are a serious buyer they will not let you walk away, so make sure you do act in a way that shows you are serious, as they have to deal with many time wasting idiots, both would be Buyers AND Vendors.

 

[bitbaltic]

it is perfectly fair and sensible that you have an opt out to walk away with your deposit ....if you discover you just do not like the boat

If you are a serious buyer they will not let you walk away, so make sure you do act in a way that shows you are serious

If I were a broker, I should be tempted to contend that a serious buyer is someone who, during the buying process, is not going to discover that he 'just does not like' the boat he is trying to buy. That suggests at the least a lack of research, which would not a serious buyer make.

 

[jwilson]

If I were a broker, I should be tempted to contend that a serious buyer is someone who, during the buying process, is not going to discover that he 'just does not like' the boat he is trying to buy. That suggests at the least a lack of research, which would not a serious buyer make.

My feeling too. On most reasonably common sailing yachts you can fairly accurately predict what she will handle like just by looking and checking design data. Reviews are a backup. On buying our present AWB I knew exactly what she would handle like without ever having sailed one of that model. I was correct. The only thing I didn't predict was how awkward it was to stow a decent sized deflated inflatable. Huge locker, but to get to it it's down the companionway, through the heads, and through a smallish hatch.

I am a broker, and my heart sinks when a buyer of (for example) a Bavaria 34 (thousands built) says of a boat ashore ".... I wouldn't buy a car without a test drive" and wants the owner to launch it so he can "....see what it handles like".

 

[vjmehra]

My feeling too. On most reasonably common sailing yachts you can fairly accurately predict what she will handle like just by looking and checking design data. Reviews are a backup. On buying our present AWB I knew exactly what she would handle like without ever having sailed one of that model. I was correct. The only thing I didn't predict was how awkward it was to stow a decent sized deflated inflatable. Huge locker, but to get to it it's down the companionway, through the heads, and through a smallish hatch.

I am a broker, and my heart sinks when a buyer of (for example) a Bavaria 34 (thousands built) says of a boat ashore ".... I wouldn't buy a car without a test drive" and wants the owner to launch it so he can "....see what it handles like".

This comment comes up so many times and is one huge reason why 'the boat market' is stuck in the dark ages....

Anyone who says they know how a boat will handle is kidding themselves.

You may have a fairly good expectation...you do not know.

If you are prepared to risk not having a test sail you are perfectly entitled to not have one, however outside of this forum in the rationale real world this stance would be viewed as insane!

Also...lets pretend that every experienced sailor magically knows how every boat handles already...what about newbies?

 

[vjmehra]

This comment comes up so many times and is one huge reason why 'the boat market' is stuck in the dark ages....

Anyone who says they know how a boat will handle is kidding themselves.

You may have a fairly good expectation...you do not know.

If you are prepared to risk not having a test sail you are perfectly entitled to not have one, however outside of this forum in the rationale real world this stance would be viewed as insane!

Also...lets pretend that every experienced sailor magically knows how every boat handles already...what about newbies?

For clarity btw I'm not saying you should offer test sails to anyone who walks up off the street, I'm just saying it's a reasonable expectation for any buyer as part of the purchasing process.

 

[Kwik Decision]

This comment comes up so many times and is one huge reason why 'the boat market' is stuck in the dark ages....

Anyone who says they know how a boat will handle is kidding themselves.

You may have a fairly good expectation...you do not know.

If you are prepared to risk not having a test sail you are perfectly entitled to not have one, however outside of this forum in the rationale real world this stance would be viewed as insane!

Also...lets pretend that every experienced sailor magically knows how every boat handles already...what about newbies?

On this basis, I've been insane twice, but on both occasions I've ended up with a boat which handled as well, or better than I expected.

I struggle to see what a newby will gain from a test sail. By definition they won't have the experience to put a boat through its paces themselves, and a skilled seller, if they were to take the buyer out for a sail, would be able to make a mediocre boat appear to handle and sail well. I believe a newby would learn far more by doing the research. The exception would be if they were buying an unusual or one off boat.

 

[vjmehra]

On this basis, I've been insane twice, but on both occasions I've ended up with a boat which handled as well, or better than I expected.

So you got lucky, that sort of proves my point, especially as you said one sailed better than expected, by not testing it, it could have been worse than your expectations too.

I struggle to see what a newby will gain from a test sail. By definition they won't have the experience to put a boat through its paces themselves, and a skilled seller, if they were to take the buyer out for a sail, would be able to make a mediocre boat appear to handle and sail well. I believe a newby would learn far more by doing the research. The exception would be if they were buying an unusual or one off boat.

It's an interesting point, in reality buyers should be able to sail a variety of boats and decide on one they like, but clearly that's not going to happen anytime soon given the cost implications for the broker/seller.

That said the broker should always be prepared to take the buyer out or be prepared to lose the sale. You are correct that a newbie may not really know what to look for, but that's their risk...

A newbie of course could have some experience perhaps from chartering so may be aware of what to expect to some degree, but regardless if someone is expected to hand over a huge some of money then it's ridiculous to not let them test the product first.

What's arguably even more ridiculous is that with a car if you don't like the way it drives you can simply not buy it....with a boat you're still stuck unless something was seriously wrong.

The whole process puts risk on the buyer which in the current climate is probably a factor in reduced liquidity.

No doubt most on here will disagree, but most on here also have a vested interest as boat owners

 

[Blue Sunray]

This comment comes up so many times and is one huge reason why 'the boat market' is stuck in the dark ages....

Anyone who says they know how a boat will handle is kidding themselves.

You may have a fairly good expectation...you do not know.

If you are prepared to risk not having a test sail you are perfectly entitled to not have one, however outside of this forum in the rationale real world this stance would be viewed as insane!

Also...lets pretend that every experienced sailor magically knows how every boat handles already...what about newbies?

:encouragement:

 

[doug748]

..... heart sinks when a buyer of (for example) a Bavaria 34 (thousands built) says of a boat ashore ".... I wouldn't buy a car without a test drive" and wants the owner to launch it so he can "....see what it handles like".

Yes I have always assumed trial sails are a remnant from a more leisurely age where Gentlemen were selling each other very expensive wooden one off boats.
It can only add more aggravation, time and cost to the business of buying and selling.

 

[bitbaltic]

I am a broker, and my heart sinks when a buyer of (for example) a Bavaria 34 (thousands built) says of a boat ashore ".... I wouldn't buy a car without a test drive" and wants the owner to launch it so he can "....see what it handles like".

Completely understand. I've had my boat for five years and am still learning about how it handles. Now, if I had taken it for a test sail when I bought it, I would have learnt a little about how it handled in the conditions of that day, which would have left me knowing alomost nothing about how it handled. To ask a vendor to launch (and lift again) a boat that's otherwise stored ashore so you can find out almost, but not quite, nothing about it is vexatious.

The driving analogy is not sensible because one is not at liberty to say to car dealer, 'I like this car but as I intend to drive it all year round I need to know how it handles on snow. Thus I will be taking it to Arctic Norway for a test drive at your risk. See you a week Thursday'. When you buy a car and test drive it to 'see how it handles', you in actual fact only find out about how it handles on the day of the test drive, and usually not in high wind, in standing water, on ice, in snow, on alpine switchbacks, and so on; so, as with your test sail, your knowledge of the thing you are buying remains incomplete. However, becuase the variety of road conditions encountered on average is very much less than the variety of sea surface conditions you might meet, your one day's test drive gives you a more representative feel for the handling of a car than you will get for the handling of a boat on any given day's sail. Add on top of this that the sea conditions on the day of the test sail could easily be beyond anything the purchaser has ever, or ever intends to experience, and a test sail may give him an unreasonably bad view of almost any boat's handling. If test sails were the norm, no brokerage in the Bristol channel would ever sell a boat to anyone who was not fresh from, or planning to depart on, the Vendee Globe. Take even the most common of boats like a Bavaria 32 or a Centaur; how many owners of these really can say they know how the boat handles in a storm, which after all is probably the conditions under which it would be most useful to be able to predict her handling? I doubt even the sesigners of these boats really know much about them from that point of view.

As far as newbies are concerned, there is much more in common between all boats than there are differences between any of them, so more sailing experience will always tell them more than they will learn from a test sail. They are also in the enviable position of being able to adapt their sailing style, as they develop, to the boat they have bought.

This is not to say that test sails have no place, but anyone who thinks it is going to reveal to them some intangible quality which will seriously influence a buying decision is being absurd, or trying to shortcut the due dilligence and research that buying thousands of pounds of glassfibre demands with guesswork. Test sails are about being sure the autopilot works under load before you sail it home round Lands' End at night, and other stuff from the more prosaic end of the purchase proces.

 

[vjmehra]

Completely understand. I've had my boat for five years and am still learning about how it handles. Now, if I had taken it for a test sail when I bought it, I would have learnt a little about how it handled in the conditions of that day, which would have left me knowing alomost nothing about how it handled. To ask a vendor to launch (and lift again) a boat that's otherwise stored ashore so you can find out almost, but not quite, nothing about it is vexatious.

The driving analogy is not sensible because one is not at liberty to say to car dealer, 'I like this car but as I intend to drive it all year round I need to know how it handles on snow. Thus I will be taking it to Arctic Norway for a test drive at your risk. See you a week Thursday'. When you buy a car and test drive it to 'see how it handles', you in actual fact only find out about how it handles on the day of the test drive, and usually not in high wind, in standing water, on ice, in snow, on alpine switchbacks, and so on; so, as with your test sail, your knowledge of the thing you are buying remains incomplete. However, becuase the variety of road conditions encountered on average is very much less than the variety of sea surface conditions you might meet, your one day's test drive gives you a more representative feel for the handling of a car than you will get for the handling of a boat on any given day's sail. Add on top of this that the sea conditions on the day of the test sail could easily be beyond anything the purchaser has ever, or ever intends to experience, and a test sail may give him an unreasonably bad view of almost any boat's handling. If test sails were the norm, no brokerage in the Bristol channel would ever sell a boat to anyone who was not fresh from, or planning to depart on, the Vendee Globe. Take even the most common of boats like a Bavaria 32 or a Centaur; how many owners of these really can say they know how the boat handles in a storm, which after all is probably the conditions under which it would be most useful to be able to predict her handling? I doubt even the sesigners of these boats really know much about them from that point of view.

As far as newbies are concerned, there is much more in common between all boats than there are differences between any of them, so more sailing experience will always tell them more than they will learn from a test sail. They are also in the enviable position of being able to adapt their sailing style, as they develop, to the boat they have bought.

This is not to say that test sails have no place, but anyone who thinks it is going to reveal to them some intangible quality which will seriously influence a buying decision is being absurd, or trying to shortcut the due dilligence and research that buying thousands of pounds of glassfibre demands with guesswork. Test sails are about being sure the autopilot works under load before you sail it home round Lands' End at night, and other stuff from the more prosaic end of the purchase proces.

Your completely right that a test sail can't possibly cover all eventualities, but even if it demonstrates as per your example that the autopilot perhaps isn't fully functional then surely it's worth having one (I think we're stating the same point here tbh, I'm just trying to explain to the doubters that claim a test sail is pointless that it is not and that a buyer has every right to expect one).

 

[TQA]

I had a trial sail as part of the purchase procedure on my forever boat. The surveyor was an active participant. It allowed us to test the autopilot, engine under full throttle for 10 minutes, winch operation under load and ease of tacking.

It also let me handle the boat under sail and decide was it a pregnant hippo on ice or a nicely balanced fast old lady. She is the latter.

I was also able to see if she would tack under main only, which she does.

All of the above can not be done except under way.

 

[Kukri]

I have just asked for a test sail. Not to find out how the boat handles but to check the systems, as the survey will not cover these.

 

[Tranona]

Your completely right that a test sail can't possibly cover all eventualities, but even if it demonstrates as per your example that the autopilot perhaps isn't fully functional then surely it's worth having one (I think we're stating the same point here tbh, I'm just trying to explain to the doubters that claim a test sail is pointless that it is not and that a buyer has every right to expect one).

But that is exactly what a sea trial is about - ensuring that the boat is as described and that equipment works as is claimed. Failure to achieve this is a valid basis for renegotiation or in extreme situations, withdraw.

Until you have actually been through the process of buying a boat - even a new one, you will not understand how limited a "test sail" is. The more experience you have the easier it is to assess what a boat will be like and why a test sail (not a sea trial) is a waste of time.

Difficult if you don't have experience, but your description of the industry being in the dark age is way off the mark. By necessity it has to adopt to what buyers and sellers expect and the fact that thousands of boats change hands every year suggests it works well.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Presumably the trial sail would generally follow the survey, so if the survey was generally good (or acceptable) then the trial sail would be the final hurdle. An offer made 'subject to survey and sea trial' is clear enough. Faults not discovered on the survey but uncovered by sea trial (eg engine overheating, or an autopilot that won't track) can then be factored in with the survey findings to arrive at a final offer (or withdrawal).

 

[superheat6k]

If I were a broker, I should be tempted to contend that a serious buyer is someone who, during the buying process, is not going to discover that he 'just does not like' the boat he is trying to buy. That suggests at the least a lack of research, which would not a serious buyer make.

I knew what boat model I wanted, and I knew what I was prepared to pay and under what terms. One broker was dismissive, and anyway the boat he was offering was over-priced and of questionable VAT status. The other broker accepted my approach as a sensible one and negotiated with both his vendor client and myself a successful sale, at the right price. I do not feel I got a bargain, IMHO I paid the correct price, and also established the correct VAT status when I brought her to the UK mainland (CI boat), which I included as part of my overall purchase cost..

Otherwise the two boats concerned were of identical Make, Model Engines and year, with little to split them.

This however followed from another similar which was significantly mis-represented - New fuel tanks, that were not; A New engine that was not; Regularly serviced which it was not - I spotted these upon first inspection. The vendor was a perfectly amenable chap, and I did explain to him my concerns with his boat, and the areas that were misrepresented. If there were such obvious mis representations I could see, what about those I could not see ?

Why should I rely on a surveyor to spot these issues, and why should I be obliged to accept a boat albeit with reductions where serious issues have not been disclosed. Having a simple 'if dissatisfied I can walk' clause resolved this. Anyone who stumps up 10% of a boat worth say > £25k is in my view as serious a purchaser as can be found.

Sadly for the Vendor of this earlier boat I later learnt that one engine badly failed during the sea-trial, costing him ~ 50% of his sale proceeds to replace the engine. In that case the sale did go through, but clearly shows why having the ability to walk at any point is perfectly reasonable. In that case the buyer was extremely lucky not to have caught a serious cold, had the engine hung on until the next trip out.

As I said as buyer you remain in the strongest position, he who pays the piper calls the tune. As has already been said vendors may not like this, nor the brokers that represent them, and all who own boats, including me, will one day be that vendor. However, I have never misrepresented a boat and have gone out of my way to establish the providence of my prior boats, both good points and bad when I come to sell.

 

[vjmehra]

But that is exactly what a sea trial is about - ensuring that the boat is as described and that equipment works as is claimed. Failure to achieve this is a valid basis for renegotiation or in extreme situations, withdraw.

Until you have actually been through the process of buying a boat - even a new one, you will not understand how limited a "test sail" is. The more experience you have the easier it is to assess what a boat will be like and why a test sail (not a sea trial) is a waste of time.

Difficult if you don't have experience, but your description of the industry being in the dark age is way off the mark. By necessity it has to adopt to what buyers and sellers expect and the fact that thousands of boats change hands every year suggests it works well.

The industry is in the dark ages...lets not kid ourselves, most people on here still feel a boat with a toilet is a 'luxury'

However I completely accept boats are bought and sold every day, people put up with things, the same with houses, but even there things are changing, look at all the online estate agents popping up. Just because something is currently the norm, doesn't mean it will be forever.

Anyway what I call a test sail may actually be what you mean by sea trial. My point was about what should happen in an ideal world, I fully accept that at this moment in time the cost is probably prohibitive for the broker/seller hence the ideal situation is implausible in reality. But I stand by the fact that other than super cheap boats or those at a massive discount (where the buyer is fully pricing in risk) it is insane not to check out that everything works at sea.

 

[bitbaltic]

You didn't. You spotted them yourself.

Although it doesn't apply to you, the 'walk any time' argument is often made by people who want the surveyor to do their job of actually inspecting their purchase. It's surprising how little time people actually spend looking for themselves.