The ethics of boat surveys.

[fredrussell]

Was musing on this today. Hypothetical scenario: A surveyor does an insurance survey and finds a potentially life threatening fault with boat. The surveyor tells the boat owner who assures surveyor that he will deal with it ASAP, but doesn’t and sells boat instead, after covering up the fault.

Does the surveyor have an obligation to report this fault to some sort of official body? My guess is they don’t. I was wondering should all surveys be logged somewhere and be available to, at the very least, organisations such as the MAIB, or perhaps anybody at all? Not fully comparable I know, but if a car fails an MOT the details of the Mot test are available for all to see making it much harder to cover something up.

 

[greeny]

I've not heard of, nor ever experienced any obligation like that. Results of survey are between surveyor and the person asking/paying for survey, at least in my experience. The results can of course be shared by the customer with others by choice.

 

[Tranona]

The next surveyor will also find the fault.

Seriously there are no regulations in this country for private boats nor any body to report to. we seem to rub along quite nicely without such interference in our private lives as far as our boats are concerned.

 

[fredrussell]

The next surveyor will also find the fault…

Not all boats are surveyed before sale though…

 

[Sandy]

Not all boats are surveyed before sale though…

How do you get insurance on them then?

 

[Tranona]

Not all boats are surveyed before sale though…

Tongue firmly in cheek!

There is no law that covers what is deemed safety critical on private craft. There is however plenty of law that might be relevant to your scenario. The first is the law of tort that covers the relationship between the owner and the surveyor where the latter owes the former a duty of care in that he should advise his client of any defect that might affect the safe use of the craft. Once he has done that he is in the clear - that is he has no obligation to ensure the client acts on his advice. If the owner then sells the boat without declaring a defect he knows about (having been advised by a professional in writing) he is then potentially open to a charge of fraud.

There is arguably no need for any statutory body to police this kind of interaction - the law is already there to deal with those sorts of disputes. However one could argue that relying on the existing law is not effective and that there should be specific law to define where an offence occurs, or possibly a voluntary agreement within the industry such as HPI and the register of recording insurance decisions following damage to vehicles.

The fact that no such thing exists for private boats suggests that there really is not a problem.

 

[Tranona]

How do you get insurance on them then?

Not all insurers require a survey even for all risks and never for third party only. Arguably there is more likelihood of a third party claim if the third party vessel is unsafe. You can imagine all sorts of scenarios where a failure on a boat could give rise to a third party claim. However such claims are likely to be very individual and the basic laws of tort robust enough to deal with them.

 

[Sandy]

Not all insurers require a survey even for all risks and never for third party only. Arguably there is more likelihood of a third party claim if the third party vessel is unsafe. You can imagine all sorts of scenarios where a failure on a boat could give rise to a third party claim. However such claims are likely to be very individual and the basic laws of tort robust enough to deal with them.

Indeed, but given that every boat I have purchased, and from anecdotal evidence everybody I know, has had to had a 'recent survey' when purchasing a vessel for the insurance company to take on the risk. Even my mooring authority needs sight of a current insurance policy, perhaps that is unusual as I am quite close to HMNB Devonport.

 

[MisterBaxter]

I can't quite visualise a life-threatening fault that could be covered up well enough that a survey or serious amateur inspection by a subsequent buyer wouldn't spot it. What sort of thing were you thinking of?
If we're hypothesising a buyer who doesn't properly inspect a boat before purchasing, I would suggest that they are at fault ethically as the master of a craft that might carry friends and family or require a rescue that could endanger others.

 

[ChromeDome]

Every potential buyer of anything has a duty to investigate, not least in own interest.

You will never be able to push responsibility to any MOT, surveyor, expert or other body unless you insure (=pay) to get rid of the responsibility yourself.

If you like you may order the same sort of surveys as done regularly on commercial passenger vessels. Then the authorities will audit you to ensure proper remediation of whatever they find and you'll be prevented from using the boat until approved..

As for registers and all that may follow: Where would the money come from?

 

[Daydream believer]

I can't quite visualise a life-threatening fault that could be covered up well enough that a survey or serious amateur inspection by a subsequent buyer wouldn't spot it. What sort of thing were you thinking of?
If we're hypothesising a buyer who doesn't properly inspect a boat before purchasing, I would suggest that they are at fault ethically as the master of a craft that might carry friends and family or require a rescue that could endanger others.

Missing keel bolts that have been removed due to corrosion & glassed over, instead of replaced. Potential gas leak from hidden pipe??

 

[fredrussell]

How do you get insurance on them then?

I’ve owned two boats that didn’t require insurance surveys. One £3k and the other £10k. Both were fully comp. I assume it’s higher value boats that need an insurance survey.

 

[sailaboutvic]

How do you get insurance on them then?

My last two boats Moody 42 and the boat I have now Bene361 both didnt have a survey ,
Pants agreed that I could self survey , they given me a list of stuff they needed info on ,
the Moody I was going to replace all the rigging anyway as I didn’t know how old it was , the bene rigging is7years old so both didn’t matter ,
I had moisture reading on both hull, for my peace of mind .
the only problem with self survey is if something goes badly wrong at a later date you can’t blame anyone for missing some thing .

 

[Momac]

How do you get insurance on them then?

I assume surveys only become a requirement when a boat reaches a certain age. I have no idea what that age is but guessing 25 years?

 

[Tranona]

Indeed, but given that every boat I have purchased, and from anecdotal evidence everybody I know, has had to had a 'recent survey' when purchasing a vessel for the insurance company to take on the risk. Even my mooring authority needs sight of a current insurance policy, perhaps that is unusual as I am quite close to HMNB Devonport.

You are confusing the requirement to have third party insurance which does not normally require a survey with "all risks" which insures the boat and does often (but not always) require a survey. Your proximity to Devenport has nothing to do with it. All marinas and would guess most club or commercial moorings would require third party - that is any damage to other boats or property, salvage and environmental clean up are covered by insurance.

 

[Tranona]

I assume surveys only become a requirement when a boat reaches a certain age. I have no idea what that age is but guessing 25 years?

While age of boat is now a common reason for existing customers being asked to have a survey, the requirement for new customers and/or new boats is almost universal for all risks insurance.

 

[V1701]

I found Pantaenius flexible in that they accepted my say so plus an older survey plus a few things like updating gas hoses sufficient to give me cover. All the other (5) lower value boats I've had I've not had a survey & have insured 3rd party which is sufficient for marina requirements. I've never had a survey & doubt I ever would now for reasons already outlined by sailaboutvic & others...

 

[MisterBaxter]

Missing keel bolts that have been removed due to corrosion & glassed over, instead of replaced. Potential gas leak from hidden pipe??

They would definitely count as potentially life-threatening but to my mind, taking appropriate responsibility as a buyer and boat owner would have to involve careful inspection of any gas installation and of the significant structural features of a new boat.

 

[fredrussell]

Agreed, but there are those who wouldn’t know how to do this - those new to boating perhaps.

My non-boaty friend bought a ferro Broads cruiser that had been repaired ‘incompetently’ after a very serious collision with something. His bad in a way as he didn’t have a pre-purchase survey done - I only write this to show that people do cover up potentially dangerous stuff. When a pro boat restorer saw my friends boat he warned him not to launch it until remedied, but he launched anyway and sure enough, it sank a few weeks later; fortunately with no one on board. It has since been broken up by a JCB.

I wonder if at some point in the past, a survey of this boat, post-collision, had a strongly worded warning of the very poor repair done. Which is what this thread about really- should surveys be recorded by some body or other in an effort to stop people covering things up - as rare as that might be, I accept.

 

[V1701]

They would definitely count as potentially life-threatening but to my mind, taking appropriate responsibility as a buyer and boat owner would have to involve careful inspection of any gas installation and of the significant structural features of a new boat.

Agreed but if the buyer's means of taking appropriate responsibility is to employ a surveyor, and the surveyor reports that the keel bolts are glassed over, the buyer will be none the wiser...