billskip
Well-known member
Atc.
The end of paper charts is nigh!
- Thread starter dk
- Start date
ANDY_W
Active member
So what happens in the event of the GPS being corrupted by proximity to naval/military exercises, or total failure due to system issues, or solar activity or...............?
salad
Active member
Would a nearby lightning strike not do this?
I think commercial airliners have specific redundancies to mitigate the risk, smaller planes don't, but I'm also not sure if they constitute conductors. An interesting point you make, although I'd imagine aviation standards are incomparable to marine as there is a far greater risk to the wider public from aircraft.
salad
Active member
Absolute global anarchy, which whilst not much help to the sailor on his yacht, perhaps you wouldn't want to come back to the shore anyway.
ylop
Well-known member
For daylight nav that's probably fine. For night nav the lights, light sequences etc do change and I wouldn't want to navigate the clyde in the dark with a 15-20 yr old chart that hadn't been corrected (because I have one that's about 10 yrs old which has a lot of corrections on it!).
Most chartplotters cope fine if the GPS feed is disconnected - they will still display the chart. Not its not so easy to get the dividers and parallel rule out to draw on the screen but for most navigation (especially with a rusty manual navigator) you probably aren't trying to be that precise anyway.
Your paper chart is made on software systems! There's no reason to assume that printed charts are without errors.
Uricanejack
Well-known member
Inevitable I suppose.
Doesn’t necessarily mean there will be no paper charts. Not yet and probably not by 2026.
I expect it means an end to the traditional admiralty charts, which are published by the crown, on high quality paper with ink which won’t run when wet or easily be rubbed out, They tended to have years even decades or more between editions.
And were highly prized as gaskets. required weekly correction. often didn’t agree with each other.
The US NOAA no longer produces charts and neither does the Canadian Hydrographic Office. Instead they are print on demand.
The difference in quality of the paper and ink is clear. But it’s printed up to date. New editions are a lot easier to produce.
Not every chandler has the ability to print on demand.
At this time we still use paper charts. Most other publications are now digital. Using ECDIS is SOP. Our larger vessels have two independent systems which are fully integrated with full ARPA. Our Smaller vessels due to sise do not carry ECDIS instead use ECS which is pretty much the same as ECDIS but smaller, not approved kind of like a plotter. Also integrated with smaller non ARPA radars which again are not approved as ARPA due to smaller sise with similar functionamity.
We are not approved as digital only. Probably could be but, right now the advantage is not there.
SOP Paper charts are still in use on the chart table and kept up to date.
Why? It’s a bit of a PIA to keep paper charts up to date. Have the system in place and be regularly audited.
Well we still use them.
The biggest reason is in case of failure. Ahh you say. But you have two fully independent electronic systems.
The problem is you are required to have two fully independent systems to go paperless.
So if one screws up you can still complete the voyage.
Ok so far so good.
Now you are buggered. You can’t start another voyage. Until the faulty system is fully functional again.
Unless of course you had the good sense not to go paperless.
Now you just call your chosen classification society and tell them you have a annoying deficiency(It’s still a requirement to be operational if fitted) but not to worry we still have paper. A condition of class is requested granted and off you go. No expensive delay. No interruptions to service.
The cost of a delay being vastly more expensive than the cost of keeping your paper charts up to snuff.
Does it ever happen.
Yes, Often enough, there is no way we will go paperless until they actually no longer are available in some form or other.
Especially when finding a tech who can fix the dam system is getting both more difficult and more expensive.
Other operators may have different opinions. Or be be just more optimistic.
Doesn’t necessarily mean there will be no paper charts. Not yet and probably not by 2026.
I expect it means an end to the traditional admiralty charts, which are published by the crown, on high quality paper with ink which won’t run when wet or easily be rubbed out, They tended to have years even decades or more between editions.
And were highly prized as gaskets. required weekly correction. often didn’t agree with each other.
The US NOAA no longer produces charts and neither does the Canadian Hydrographic Office. Instead they are print on demand.
The difference in quality of the paper and ink is clear. But it’s printed up to date. New editions are a lot easier to produce.
Not every chandler has the ability to print on demand.
At this time we still use paper charts. Most other publications are now digital. Using ECDIS is SOP. Our larger vessels have two independent systems which are fully integrated with full ARPA. Our Smaller vessels due to sise do not carry ECDIS instead use ECS which is pretty much the same as ECDIS but smaller, not approved kind of like a plotter. Also integrated with smaller non ARPA radars which again are not approved as ARPA due to smaller sise with similar functionamity.
We are not approved as digital only. Probably could be but, right now the advantage is not there.
SOP Paper charts are still in use on the chart table and kept up to date.
Why? It’s a bit of a PIA to keep paper charts up to date. Have the system in place and be regularly audited.
Well we still use them.
The biggest reason is in case of failure. Ahh you say. But you have two fully independent electronic systems.
The problem is you are required to have two fully independent systems to go paperless.
So if one screws up you can still complete the voyage.
Ok so far so good.
Now you are buggered. You can’t start another voyage. Until the faulty system is fully functional again.
Unless of course you had the good sense not to go paperless.
Now you just call your chosen classification society and tell them you have a annoying deficiency(It’s still a requirement to be operational if fitted) but not to worry we still have paper. A condition of class is requested granted and off you go. No expensive delay. No interruptions to service.
The cost of a delay being vastly more expensive than the cost of keeping your paper charts up to snuff.
Does it ever happen.
Yes, Often enough, there is no way we will go paperless until they actually no longer are available in some form or other.
Especially when finding a tech who can fix the dam system is getting both more difficult and more expensive.
Other operators may have different opinions. Or be be just more optimistic.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Answer to your question NO , I should know we had a direct hit some years back ,
plus twice we been in a marina where boats near by been hit and we had no problems .
Even so I didn't suggest not caring some old charts , no matter how out of date they maybe .
Uricanejack
Well-known member
I don’t think you can be sure one way or the other. It would depend on the boat ,where the lightning hit, the conductivity or insulation and where your Nav gear is .
So it it or it might not. Not something to loose a lot of sleep over just have a back up plan.
So it it or it might not. Not something to loose a lot of sleep over just have a back up plan.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
I can tell you for sure any lighting strike be it a direct hit or near by in no way going to wipe out all your equipment or some of it .
We been hit and other then the wind instruments that got blow of the top we had no other problem .
We also been in a marina where boats on both side of us had some problems with statis from a near by strike and had different parts of equipment damage and we had nothing .
One year I think it was the same year Robbie from the manor was in the same marina in Sicily 12 boats had damage and boats around then had nothing .
So yes it depend of a lot of stuff and good luck too .
capnsensible
Well-known member
A few years ago I was speaking to a chap in Shelter Bay, Panama. He was having to replace every electronic piece of kit he had on board due to a lightning strike. The delivery process was not swift.....
Sandy
Well-known member
Other suppliers are available.
Goldie
Well-known member
Thank you Cap’n ??.
Graham376
Well-known member
Commercial aircraft have IRS (Inertial navigation) as backup.
I prefer paper navigation so hoping IMRAY and others don't discontinue them.
WindyWindyWindy
Active member
I saw this in the Torygraph too, they were suggesting GEONAV was a popular alternative but I'd never heard of that kit. Anyone use it?
Also, I think this means that coded vessels would have to buy imray charts as I don't think any others are approved?
Also, I think this means that coded vessels would have to buy imray charts as I don't think any others are approved?
Neeves
Well-known member
Charts are of immense value if you are navigating the Humber, or Clyde.
If you are in the middle of the Atlantic you might only look at a chart every 24 hours and you might not have your chart plotter on for days on end. All you need is lat long which you record, along with other salient detail, at a frequency largely dictated by boat speed and you might plot once a day.
The problems arise when you get closer to hard jagged places.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-known member
I think your source is either not understanding or the website I found is ficticious
GeoNAV Satellite Systems
Jonathan
Graham376
Well-known member
Not just buoys which move. Our charts from north of Portugal to UK are around 18 -20 years old and I certainly wouldn't trust them if returning to the UK, too many offshore wind farms have been constructed since.
Boathook
Well-known member
Never sailed through wind farms but I assume they are 'lit'. Its the mussel farms on the south coast I'm concerned about and how well they are lit at night. Luckily most seem to be in bays that I presently normally bypass, especially at night.
oz-1
Member
Hello everyone, The only thing that comes to my mind, is that everything seems to be going digital. This may be fine, and it might even be better, but why can we not still have the choice in how we do things, whether it is charts, paying in cash instead of cards etc. Choice seems to not exist for lots of things now. Best regards, Oz.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Have you thought about getting your eyes tested
