The end of paper charts is nigh!

jac

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Hello everyone, The only thing that comes to my mind, is that everything seems to be going digital. This may be fine, and it might even be better, but why can we not still have the choice in how we do things, whether it is charts, paying in cash instead of cards etc. Choice seems to not exist for lots of things now. Best regards, Oz.
That choice has existed for a while though and people have moved wholesale over to digital. So at some stage producers simply have to stop. You can;t justify a printed output if onlya small handful of people then buy each chart ( or well you could but users would have to pay through the nose for it)

I suspect that some chandlers may invest in larger scale printers, more waterproof ink and paper and do print on demand for a while ( even at A3 size) but as older, traditional sailors age i can see even print on demand ceasing
 

westernman

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That choice has existed for a while though and people have moved wholesale over to digital. So at some stage producers simply have to stop. You can;t justify a printed output if onlya small handful of people then buy each chart ( or well you could but users would have to pay through the nose for it)

I suspect that some chandlers may invest in larger scale printers, more waterproof ink and paper and do print on demand for a while ( even at A3 size) but as older, traditional sailors age i can see even print on demand ceasing
It costs very little extra to provide a pdf file alongside the data for a chart plotter. (Think printing a section of a libreOffice vector drawing to file). So I see no reason for the pdf files to not be provided.

There are many places to get high quality water proof prints from a pdf file in A0-A4 sizes such as the one in post #6.

I agree, it probably won't be your local chandler doing the printing.
 

ylop

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Also, I think this means that coded vessels would have to buy imray charts as I don't think any others are approved?
I suspect that by the time they get to actually stopping printing the coded boat community will have persuaded the MCA that they aren't needed providing there are two entirely independent systems on board (e.g. boat system + phone/tablet).
Hello everyone, The only thing that comes to my mind, is that everything seems to be going digital. This may be fine, and it might even be better, but why can we not still have the choice in how we do things, whether it is charts, paying in cash instead of cards etc. Choice seems to not exist for lots of things now. Best regards, Oz.
Well we have had a choice, and presumably because the sales are so poor the Admiralty have concluded "our" choice is not to bother with paper. The alternative is presumably to keep printed charts but charge 10x the price. Other publishers will remain a choice, or will follow suit if there is insufficient demand. Interestingly if you look at on land mapping in many regards for what ordinary people do Harveys maps are better than OS (waterproof, lighter, convenient scale, extra info, centred on locations of interest), yet OS dominate which limits even these simple innovations. Admiralty is probably similar - by them stopping it may open up opportunities for others e.g. print on demand at a chandler, imray to add new styles/ranges etc.
 

ylop

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I print charts/portions of charts in A4 then laminate them, A3 would be better but A4 ok too.
I've cobbled stuff together in the past - but does any of the software currently available actually make this easy to do?
 

WindyWindyWindy

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So what happens in the event of the GPS being corrupted by proximity to naval/military exercises, or total failure due to system issues, or solar activity or...............?
R
I think your source is either not understanding or the website I found is ficticious

GeoNAV Satellite Systems

Jonathan

Twas here (paywall):-
Admiralty stops printing paper nautical charts after 222 years

However, many sailors currently use non-official navigation systems, which warn they should not be used as a replacement for government-produced charts.
Admiralty Facts

One popular brand, GEONAV, displays the automatic warning...

A Google suggests that such devices exist, but I can't find any manufacturer info.
 

dunedin

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Well we have had a choice, and presumably because the sales are so poor the Admiralty have concluded "our" choice is not to bother with paper. The alternative is presumably to keep printed charts but charge 10x the price. Other publishers will remain a choice, or will follow suit if there is insufficient demand. Interestingly if you look at on land mapping in many regards for what ordinary people do Harveys maps are better than OS (waterproof, lighter, convenient scale, extra info, centred on locations of interest), yet OS dominate which limits even these simple innovations. Admiralty is probably similar - by them stopping it may open up opportunities for others e.g. print on demand at a chandler, imray to add new styles/ranges etc.
I think the reality is that for UKHO their main interest is in commercial shipping and leisure sailors are a nuisance. They have been trying to abandon paper charts for yachts for some time. It is a cost reduction exercise for them.
 

Uricanejack

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Not so daft.
Possible from chart plotter, it depends on if the chart plotter has a the ability to connect a stick. Or printer.
I have printed from an ECDIS, or requested something be printed.
It was for a specific purpose, not to print of charts. And not for navigation.
you can certainly print of a laptop ect.
Again you would really want to do so a particular purpose. Eg a printed copy of a passage plan, route ect. Or particular portions of a passage plan.
You would go through a heck of a lot of ink and paper if you were trying to use for routine navigation.
 

CM74

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This will be interesting for the tugs, we are under 500gt so aren't covered by the requirement to fit ECDIS but we are over 24m so the Imray charts aren't approved for us.
The change to print on demand has been going for a while, and doesn't cause us any issues apart from the far less durable ink that rubs off more easily with the pencil lines.

I can only imagine the cost of fitting 2x independent systems onto each tug, and training for close to half the masters and mates that aren't trained to use ECDIS
(I am though, and have used it - it's important to remember electronic charts ≠ GPS! They are in some ways better for non-GPS navigation than paper)
 

Uricanejack

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This will be interesting for the tugs, we are under 500gt so aren't covered by the requirement to fit ECDIS but we are over 24m so the Imray charts aren't approved for us.
The change to print on demand has been going for a while, and doesn't cause us any issues apart from the far less durable ink that rubs off more easily with the pencil lines.

I can only imagine the cost of fitting 2x independent systems onto each tug, and training for close to half the masters and mates that aren't trained to use ECDIS
(I am though, and have used it - it's important to remember electronic charts ≠ GPS! They are in some ways better for non-GPS navigation than paper)
Wot, Skippers got the chart out, are we lost or sumit. :)

Quite a few of our vessels are under 500t , and the right angled drives, bugger up all the pito’s dopplers and electromagnetic. So proper ARPA functions won’t work. GPS ground stabilized, close enough.
Space is the issue with small WH. And not obstructing the view. So chart overlay is preferred option, rather than separate displays. Full compliance with paperless just not practical.
One of our initially less popular moves was going paperless with log. Particularly with the old guard. Took some getting used to but wouldn’t want to go back.
One negative, it’s noticeably taking longer to break in a new guy. Having to log everything helps you learn it.
 

Lodestone

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Are there any devices outside of ECDIS e.g. standalone plotters, PC plotters or even apps that allow intersecting bearings, running fixes or radar fixes to be entered to establish position? Tools to replace a paper plot? I know Simrad and Raymarine don't provide these features. It would be straightforward for the data to be entered or displayed, particularly with radar being controlled from them, as a lot of information is there on the network already. I guess it's not a sexy as autorouting or a nice 3D piccy of a mullet so they won't justify the software development.

An over-reliance on a single source of position - GNSS - that can be vulnerable to many affects isn't a good thing.
For the moment I'm glad that Imray will fill the void for us.
 

dunedin

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Are there any devices outside of ECDIS e.g. standalone plotters, PC plotters or even apps that allow intersecting bearings, running fixes or radar fixes to be entered to establish position? Tools to replace a paper plot? I know Simrad and Raymarine don't provide these features. It would be straightforward for the data to be entered or displayed, particularly with radar being controlled from them, as a lot of information is there on the network already. I guess it's not a sexy as autorouting or a nice 3D piccy of a mullet so they won't justify the software development.

An over-reliance on a single source of position - GNSS - that can be vulnerable to many affects isn't a good thing.
For the moment I'm glad that Imray will fill the void for us.
You are spot on. I am not aware of any mainstream plotters that allow this.
RIN raised this as an issue in hheir booklet on safe electronic navigation on small craft. MCA however seem unconcerned and apparently happy to accept anything UKHO proposes.
 

Uricanejack

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Are there any devices outside of ECDIS e.g. standalone plotters, PC plotters or even apps that allow intersecting bearings, running fixes or radar fixes to be entered to establish position? Tools to replace a paper plot? I know Simrad and Raymarine don't provide these features. It would be straightforward for the data to be entered or displayed, particularly with radar being controlled from them, as a lot of information is there on the network already. I guess it's not a sexy as autorouting or a nice 3D piccy of a mullet so they won't justify the software development.

An over-reliance on a single source of position - GNSS - that can be vulnerable to many affects isn't a good thing.
For the moment I'm glad that Imray will fill the void for us.

Yes. It can be done, with a full ECDIS or at least it can be done with a Sperry or a SAM ECDIS .
Truth is though it’s a PIA . To access the features required through a menu system
Basically the EBL and a VRM And on occasions an offset VRM and EBL Drop a marker or line as required. It’s a bit awkward .
So in practice I’ve never seen anyone bother.

More typically in routine use in coastal waters. Strongly encourage the use of parallel index lines and dead ranges. Which when used with a radar picture provide an excellent method of verification of position. Used along with visual references on a routine basis particularly if they match up provides very good situational awareness very quickly and easily even in restricted visibility. Of course you need a radar preferably with a MFD to use with chart overlay.
like a lot of things, it requires practice to be proficient.

I prefer to set up as required and can change as required by conditions. I encourage Nav Officers to keep their own Navigation note book.
And to have written notes for any route. So they have a quick easy reference when they have the con.
being quite dyslexic it never worked well for me, I use a more picture like diagram with rough course distances off, PI dead ranges,

I still much prefer to do all the planning ect on paper charts then transfer to electronic means. Even with in a very well surveyed area with DGPS they don’t always agree.
As a personal practice. I don’t rely on DGPS and ECDIS until after I have verieved it running it visually and by radar.
Having done so, I must admit it is very helpful running the bar into a dark poorly marked narrow channel and dock on a foul winter night.
Even so, to this day I still use a sounding for my wheel over.
As you said
Never rely on a single source.
 
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AntarcticPilot

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I have written to my MP, pointing out the continuing need for paper charts, as well as the reasons why depending on electronic charts alone is not viable. For one thing, there are many smaller craft, including small-scale commercial craft, that do not have electronic charting devices, or the power supply to operate them. Most of our kit is dependent on GNSS and is unusable without it; GNSS is routinely jammed in some parts of the UK for military exercises, not to mention the unpredictable effect of solar storms and (near shore) illegal GNSS jammers.

From my experience in map publishing, I can't believe there are significant savings to be made. Because of international commitments, they have to maintain the ability to print charts so there are no infrastructure savings. The marginal costs of publishing a chart from the electronic database are not great - I would imagine the greatest cost is distribution. The cost of printing is insignificant - at most £2-£3 per sheet, and easily covered by the prices charged.

I don't have a problem with them moving to a print-on-demand system, but completely removing a valued and safety-critical product range seems to me to be just plain wrong!
 
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