Survey Question - Potentially a Silly One

[A_Sails_Pace]

On my previous boat purchase I had a survey carried out and went through things very carefully before I purchased it.

Now that I’m downsizing and I’m going for something a lot cheaper (few grand only, perhaps 3-5) I was wondering what the views were on surveys?

My thought process is that I’ll likely need a survey for insurance purposes anyway? But I can’t help but feel a little odd suggesting a survey for a much cheaper boat? I’ve seen people purchasing boats they’re happy with (condition-wise) without getting a survey done? I’m fairly confident in looking at a boat’s condition and issues but I realise I’m no expert.

I guess I’m wondering if people apply the same approach to surveys for smaller and cheaper boats, like trailer sailers. I’m half tempted to just make the purchase and then get myself an insurance survey later, but then even just saying that gives me a touch of the seconds.

Any advice welcome.

(I intend on having it on a mooring for most of the year despite there being a trailer option)

A.S.P

 

[V1701]

I suspect most of us wouldn't on a cheaper boat, I certainly wouldn't. Third party insurance from the likes of basic Boat (assuming that it allows you to keep the boat on a mooring) would obviate the need for a survey purely for insurance purposes and it's not like you haven't a clue what you're looking at having previously owned. Good luck with it...

 

[Dellquay13]

I bought a £3.5k yacht without a survey, but I have 20years of various small mobo ownership, and I also knew the boat had been afloat in a marina untouched for over a year so it wasn’t in immediate danger of sinking. I also bought it in the middle of a covid lockdown from a zoom viewing by the broker.
While I’ve had big unexpected problems, they weren’t such that a survey would have found them anyway. The smaller problems that would have been found were commensurate with the price I paid, and cost less than a survey to rectify.
I didn’t need a survey to get fully comp insurance through a broker.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

If an inboard engine , personally, I would still go for an engine survey. I found this out the hard way. If you can find a local one man band, it needn't cost much. Even if the engine can't be fired ashore , they can still be very useful.

 

[V1701]

If an inboard engine , personally, I would still go for an engine survey. I found this out the hard way. If you can find a local one man band, it needn't cost much. Even if the engine can't be fired ashore , they can still be very useful.

Fair point as not covered in regular survey but if it starts from cold, doesn't belch smoke and pumps cooling water, clean/fresh oil would be a bonus but unlikely. Have a look at the mounts & the rotation of the shaft with engine running and gear engaged if possible. Check impeller, exhaust elbow, cooling water sea cock. General appearance/condition. What else is an engine survey going to do? Genuine question I have no idea...

I'll be honest personally I have trust issues and would rather not let anybody who I don't know for sure knows what they're doing/talking about anywhere near my boat. And if I don't know how to do something myself I'd likely find out & have a go, none of this stuff is rocket science. While surveys can be useful for negotiating price you have no comeback if something goes wrong after you bought the boat. So with a cheap boat I wouldn't bother...

 

[A_Sails_Pace]

Some very good points/advice above, thank you

I’m sort of thinking along the same lines but I wasn’t sure if I was being sensible or not.

Much appreciated.

 

[davidpbo]

Would you get an (AA) inspection on a car of a similar value?

 

[Dellquay13]

Would you get an (AA) inspection on a car of a similar value?

Are the costs of a boat survey, possibly needing a boat hoist for a lift and hold to check the hull ashore, that comparable to an AA inspection of a car?
I wouldn’t expect to pay the equivalent of about £500 for a survey and another £200 for a hoist for a car costing £3.5k.

 

[MADRIGAL]

In my professional work, the same question arises regarding the prior-to-purchase examination of horses: how much do you have to pay for a horse to make a vetting exam worthwhile? The same insurance considerations need to be addressed as in a yacht purchase, and you have to consider what the cost of the survey will add to the cost of the purchase. In the end, it all comes down to the purchaser's tolerance for risk!

 

[LittleSister]

If an inboard engine , personally, I would still go for an engine survey. I found this out the hard way. If you can find a local one man band, it needn't cost much. Even if the engine can't be fired ashore , they can still be very useful.

I looked into getting a formal engine survey of the last boat I purchased, as the engine was rather old, and replacing it would have been beyond my means. After a bit of research I came to the conclusion that any written survey would have been so hedged with caveats it wasn't worth the significant additional outlay. Instead I got a jobbing marine engineer (recommended by a friend of a friend in the trade) to come and start the engine (ashore) and give me his verbal opinion. He considered it started and ran well, looked tidy, didn't make any worrying sounds, and that the faint smoke visible in the exhaust was nothing to worry about and very reasonable considering the age of the engine. I was sufficiently reassured to buy the boat, and the engine has proved very satisfactory (and the exhaust smoke invisible once the engine is hot). The injection pump sprang a leak a couple of years later (and having the pump overhauled, and removed/refitted, was scary expensive) but couldn't have been anticipated, I don't think.

 

[Refueler]

I was one of the few Surveyors that graded my costs to owner based on the boat inspected. Yes it meant that on occasion I was basically only covering my costs.
Sounds strange to say it - as it was a business - but I I could not get rid of the thoughts ... I could have a House surveyed for xx cost - but a small boat survey was far higher cost !

In answer to OP's question .... the solution I would suggest would be a Boat Yards letter stating boat is in "Seaworthy reasonable condition without significant defect". Many insurance Company's accept such letter for the 'budget value' boat.

We can all recount tales of horror ... but at end of day - if the boat floats ... gear works ... engine starts and runs well ... no signs of water into oil etc. etc. - then whats problem ??

You could get a Surveyor in and then have all sorts of items reported ... high moisture content of hull ... but then > hidden and covered areas not inspected due access .... engine excluded other than test started ....

"know what I mean ?"

If YOU are happy with the boat .... go for it ... then get a Boat Yard Letter .....

See my thread "Wish me luck 2" Wish me luck 2 - of to view 38ft boat in Sweden

Substantially more money and now in my ownership. Read the faults list - that's only a part of the many things found - not one serious enough to stop me buying.

 

[V1701]

Would you get an (AA) inspection on a car of a similar value?

No

 

[Laser310]

a few years ago I bought a boat at about £40,000.

The first available survey date was weeks in the future, and the insurance company didn't ask for a survey, so I went without.

The boat - a J/92S - is a fairly simple boat. The engine seemed to run well, and there are no significant systems, It was obvious that the sails were tired.

I observed several minor defects.., and in the few years I have owned it, no other problems have become apparent.

I think the main thing is the complexity of the boat.., but at some price point, it just isn't worth the trouble.

 

[johnlilley]

If it helps, go to my website & download the free survey template, Choose GRP or wood. It might help you go through the boat objectively yourself without any expense.. Click surveys samples & owner checklist

 

[peter gibbs]

On my previous boat purchase I had a survey carried out and went through things very carefully before I purchased it.

Now that I’m downsizing and I’m going for something a lot cheaper (few grand only, perhaps 3-5) I was wondering what the views were on surveys?

My thought process is that I’ll likely need a survey for insurance purposes anyway? But I can’t help but feel a little odd suggesting a survey for a much cheaper boat? I’ve seen people purchasing boats they’re happy with (condition-wise) without getting a survey done? I’m fairly confident in looking at a boat’s condition and issues but I realise I’m no expert.

I guess I’m wondering if people apply the same approach to surveys for smaller and cheaper boats, like trailer sailers. I’m half tempted to just make the purchase and then get myself an insurance survey later, but then even just saying that gives me a touch of the seconds.

Any advice welcome.

(I intend on having it on a mooring for most of the year despite there being a trailer option)

A.S.P

Go for a structural survey and keep it basic for your purpose. A full survey with pages of contents / inventory will double the charge of course.

 

[sailaboutvic]

My last two boats where brough without a surveyor.
both wasn’t cheap boats one at less cost what you pay for a small semi house .
my insurance then and still are now pants agreed that I could self survey given me a list of stuff they wanted to know about ,
both boat I was going to replace the rigging any away ,
I did have moisture reading done on the hull but that was for my own peace of mind .
being and ownering boat for well over 45 years I feel I can judge how well a boat has been maintained and the condition of the boat , I really don’t need to pay out to have someone tell me a window needs to be replace or there play in a rudder .
most surveyor know little about engine or rigging and will advice the buyer to pay more money for a rig check and a engineer to check the engine including oil simply check ,
so-one as to ask what are you paying them to surveying .
the last boat I brought which I own now it was clear the rudder bearing was on the way out , sails seen better days but still useable , rigging i couldn’t get when last replacement or if they have been and as it was 12 years old I decided best to replace .
as I was doing it myself it wasn’t much more to get it tested to be told it’s best to replace ,
couple of the window was scored and the odd mark here and there which is expected with an 12 year old boat .
gas pipe needed changing and the wind instruments was played up ( still does )
16 months on and other then the engine mounts which I just replaced nothing new turned up .
( shouldnt not talk too soon )
my Experience talking to many people who have survey is even if there is a problem after the sale trying to recoup money back from a surveyor on some thing he missed is almost impossible.

 

[MisterBaxter]

I think that when buying a boat, one of the main functions of a survey is to take away the rose-tinted spectacles and make you look at whatever issues the boat has square on. It's all too easy to fall for a particular boat and unconscious psychological denial tends to creep in, blinding you to problems or likely costs that you can actually see for yourself.
That's why it's good to use a survey template if you're not getting a survey - it makes you look properly at the things you might choose to ignore...

 

[V1701]

I also think buying privately scores over buying from your average (i.e. not very good) broker - being able to meet the owner, talk to them about the boat, etc. and related to the above post, take a mate with you for the same reason...

 

[steveeasy]

In my professional work, the same question arises regarding the prior-to-purchase examination of horses: how much do you have to pay for a horse to make a vetting exam worthwhile? The same insurance considerations need to be addressed as in a yacht purchase, and you have to consider what the cost of the survey will add to the cost of the purchase. In the end, it all comes down to the purchaser's tolerance for risk!

Whilst Ive seen lots of vetting's fail, and probably for good reason , I suspect its much much wiser to have one carried out for a horse, than what is really nothing more than a fiberglass tub. Of course the more complex and expensive the vessel is, the wiser it may be, to have a pre purchase survey.

Steveeasy

 

[Refueler]

I also think buying privately scores over buying from your average (i.e. not very good) broker - being able to meet the owner, talk to them about the boat, etc. and related to the above post, take a mate with you for the same reason...

Its a question of getting to know the seller ... often snippets of supposedly separate info come together they pass on ... you get a picture of what they did and possibly why they are selling ... instead of the usual glib statement.
It can as rewarding to sit in the main cabin and casually chat ... as poking around the boat ..