storm sail over furled genoa

[Seajet]

I'm sure you have taken down HANKED ON headsails on bigger boats in very strong winds. That is do-able - though the stronger the wind the harder it will be. In those circumstances however it is most unlikely you were going straight from a 150% genoa to a storm jib - by the time you get to want a storm jib you have normally long since changed the big genoa for a No 2 or 3.

If you plan to set off in gale conditions it is feasible and sensible to take down the roller genoa and rig a smaller sail before departure. Trying to do it in big seas and full gale or worse conditions is insane. There is a 90% probability that you will end up in worse trouble than before you started.

jwilson,

I don't recall the various asymmetric and conventional spinnakers, or tallboys, I have played with being hanked on; and unless something is badly wrong with your roller foil it should have much the same effect as hanks, but be quicker and easier to lower !

Just because someone does not agree with you that does not make them 'insane'; though I might compare your stated approach to Ostriches and Lemmings, re-read my mention of what happens on lee shores and have a think.

 

[john_morris_uk]

jwilson,

I don't recall the various asymmetric and conventional spinnakers, or tallboys, I have played with being hanked on; and unless something is badly wrong with your roller foil it should have much the same effect as hanks, but be quicker and easier to lower !

Just because someone does not agree with you that does not make them 'insane'; though I might compare your stated approach to Ostriches and Lemmings, re-read my mention of what happens on lee shores and have a think.

I'll try one more time.

Seajet, you seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar and perhaps over-egging your case. I'm afraid that I don't believe for one millisecond that you have taken down many (if any) spinnakers and tallboys in storm force winds. Perhaps a sense of perspective over wind strengths might help your argument?

To give you some idea of its size, as a fit 6'2" Commando trained male I work hard to lift my genoa and carry it around in nil wind. Now tell me again that you will go on the foredeck in a gale and unroll it and drop it down the luff groove and bring it back to me in one piece! You might, but you will be wishing you hadn't started to try soon after it is unrolled.

I am sure that with lots of adrenalin I might find a way of lashing it as it is lowered, but it would be a high risk strategy and NOT one I would recommend to plan for. Leave the thing rolled up good and tight and secure and get the storm job up on a separate wire inner forestay is by far the better bet as has been suggested several times.

 

[Seajet]

Jwilson,

I have more brains and experience than to handle those sails in a gale, but they are much harder to handle than a headsail secured by a luff foil and people regularly handle them in F6-7.

I am not hot under the collar at all, you are the one advocating a suicidal ostrich approach as things may be a bit more difficult or non-standard; a funny sort of commando training unless you mean a weekend without underpants, then commandos aren't sailors by training are they ?

There are none so blind as they who will not see; if you don't get it, that's your and your crews' problem, I'd like to continue this chat in 10 years time, which may be possible if you stay within sprinting distance of port and stay lucky, not my idea of seamanship but each to their own.

Had enough of this, those with brains and experience will have caught on, otherwise I wish you good luck.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Jwilson,

I have more brains and experience than to handle those sails in a gale, but they are much harder to handle than a headsail secured by a luff foil and people regularly handle them in F6-7.

I am not hot under the collar at all, you are the one advocating a suicidal ostrich approach as things may be a bit more difficult or non-standard; a funny sort of commando training unless you mean a weekend without underpants, then commandos aren't sailors by training are they ?

There are none so blind as they who will not see; if you don't get it, that's your and your crews' problem, I'd like to continue this chat in 10 years time, which may be possible if you stay within sprinting distance of port and stay lucky, not my idea of seamanship but each to their own. (I can't think of a way of answering this politely without sounding patronising. You obviously have no idea of my sailing background...)

Had enough of this, those with brains and experience will have caught on, otherwise I wish you good luck.

Don't know where you get the jwilson from as I don't hide my name?

We will have to agree to differ, (especially over who is getting hot under their collar).

Please think about what the other person's sailing experience might be before you dismiss their suggestions and argument and start making personal and derogatory comments. You don't do yourself any favours when you start making personal remarks. There's no excuse for some of your comments, just because several people are disagreeing with your suggested advice to unfurl a large genoa in a gale/storm to take it down.

My reference to my size/fitness was only to emphasise how big our genoa is. I was sailing offshore a very long time before I went through commando training and the two aren't connected in the slightest. I even suggested you 'might' manage it - but in my opinion the risk would be too great and in an earlier post I also suggested the sail might get damaged.

The only reason I have pursued the argument is that lots of people (and perhaps some beginners to sailing) lurk on these forums and I wouldn't like them to get the wrong idea about what is possible or advisable in very strong winds. Good seamanship is about being able to assess all sorts of conditions and circumstances and make appropriate and safe decisions. If the wind was rising, and I'd gradually been rolling the genoa away in order to reduce sail, and it came to the point that I realised I would be better off with a storm jib, I can confidently predict that unrolling the genoa to take it down would be fairly low down the options list I would be considering.

If you think otherwise, we will have to agree to differ, but hopefully people reading this thread in days and years to come will think twice before they think that taking down a large genoa in a gale is going to be an easy option.

 

[jwilson]

Don't know where you get the jwilson from as I don't hide my name?

We will have to agree to differ, (especially over who is getting hot under their collar).

Please think about what the other person's sailing experience might be before you dismiss their suggestions and argument and start making personal and derogatory comments. You don't do yourself any favours when you start making personal remarks. There's no excuse for some of your comments, just because several people are disagreeing with your suggested advice to unfurl a large genoa in a gale/storm to take it down.

My reference to my size/fitness was only to emphasise how big our genoa is. I was sailing offshore a very long time before I went through commando training and the two aren't connected in the slightest. I even suggested you 'might' manage it - but in my opinion the risk would be too great and in an earlier post I also suggested the sail might get damaged.

The only reason I have pursued the argument is that lots of people (and perhaps some beginners to sailing) lurk on these forums and I wouldn't like them to get the wrong idea about what is possible or advisable in very strong winds. Good seamanship is about being able to assess all sorts of conditions and circumstances and make appropriate and safe decisions. If the wind was rising, and I'd gradually been rolling the genoa away in order to reduce sail, and it came to the point that I realised I would be better off with a storm jib, I can confidently predict that unrolling the genoa to take it down would be fairly low down the options list I would be considering.

If you think otherwise, we will have to agree to differ, but hopefully people reading this thread in days and years to come will think twice before they think that taking down a large genoa in a gale is going to be an easy option.

+1 from jwilson (who is not an ex-commando, but agrees fully with John Morris).

As soon as you start to lower it, a roller genoa is no longer as you say "secured by a luff foil" - it is several hundred square feet of heavy, strong sail filling with wind and probably also many tons of water and generating forces that risk damage to boat and man trying to restrain it.

 

[jwilson]

There was a recent thread about this topic. This appears to be a good solution.

http://uk.storm-bag.com/

(no connection)

I just looked back at what started this thread, the patent storm-jib-in-a-bag. I have just looked at the demo video, showing it being deployed in about a Force 4 (maybe just 5) in near-flat water. As I have been saying all along, things that are easy to do in Force 5, and do-able with difficulty in 6-7, get very different in really strong winds.

I don't think it appears a good solution. Fit a removable inner forestay and have a hanked-on storm jib. You will probably never use it, but it uses ancient tested technology.

 

[prv]

+1 from jwilson (who is not an ex-commando, but agrees fully with John Morris).

Actually I think he's serving (commando vicar!) rather than ex

Pete

 

[Seajet]

Pete, and Jwilson, vic ? etc,

you haven't really got my message at all; it's not meant to be as easy as pulling a string and 'hey presto the jib is gone' but it can be absolutely vital.

Not that difficult either, rather obviously if things look dire one does it ASAP.

Either way it's better to get the ******* sail and windage off and get away from a lee shore or hazard rather than not doing so.

If that seems too much like hard work and it's a case of 'I've twiddled my roller, other than that I'm out of options so we're all dead' then so be it, maybe if you ever get in this position you may remember the words of this misguided fool before it's too late.

Remember these words, you may need them: " Goodnight, Vienna ! "

SJ out.

 

[Slipstream 34]

Pete, and Jwilson, vic ? etc,

you haven't really got my message at all; it's not meant to be as easy as pulling a string and 'hey presto the jib is gone' but it can be absolutely vital.

Not that difficult either, rather obviously if things look dire one does it ASAP.

Either way it's better to get the ******* sail and windage off and get away from a lee shore or hazard rather than not doing so.

If that seems too much like hard work and it's a case of 'I've twiddled my roller, other than that I'm out of options so we're all dead' then so be it, maybe if you ever get in this position you may remember the words of this misguided fool before it's too late.

Remember these words, you may need them: " Goodnight, Vienna ! "

SJ out.

You really are a broken record. Your polarised view on this subject is tiresome to say the least. Clearly your advice has come from a book, as have all of your top tips.

Your arrogance amongst experienced sailors offends.

If your knowledge of R/T phraseology is up to speed we will hear no more from you !

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Lies Make The Baby Jesus Cry - And No One Wants That!

To add some balance to the debate I recall a situation that I found my self in. But first some history. I am an ex-professional offshore sailor, 5 years where I was rarely off a yacht plus the previous 3 years of spring, summer and autumn breaks sailing. About 70% coastal, with the remainder crossing Oceans; deliveries, tuition and a relatively small amount of racing. If you think I am a liar thats your business, otherwise you have to take it on faith.

I was sailing a Sigma 41 with a novice crew and the yacht was between Ailsa Craig and the Cumbrae Gap, just abeam of the Holy Isle, off Arran in the Firth of Clyde, heading back to Inverkip. It was a beautiful spring day, crystal clear and blowing no more than a F1, not a cloud in sight at all. The yacht did not have a roller furling headsail: full main and No 1 Genoa (luff rope) flying, sailing on a fine reach, fractional rig.

A crew member was looking to windward (up towards Loch Fyne) and remarked that the sea was weird off Arran. It was a lovely dark blue but covered in small white horses with foamy streaks down the back. The waves were some distance away when we were slammed by a solid wall of wind and laid over flat. The Sigma rounded up but not by much and she just remained pinned down.

The main was dumped and the kicker released but the the boom hit the sea and the kicker, being a rod vang, topped out on its stops and not much changed in our situation. I eased out on the Genoa and she came up and the main started flogging violently as you would expect. I got her under some control and pinched up with just the aft end of the main drawing and the genoa alternating between big luffing and slight flogging. In this wind, with this much sail up, flogging must not be allowed to happen for any length of time and I was not prepared to run off with full main.

The crew were sent to the fore deck. My bow man had suffered a degenerative disease that had fused his spine together and he was the proverbial crooked old man as he could not straighten up much beyond 90 degrees, but he was only about 50 years of age. The disease had run its course over the years, the pain had stopped and now he was getting on with life and doing stuff, which was why he was on the yacht.

He wedged himself up at the bow beside the foil and with the Genoa still fairly close sheeted the halyard was eased out. Halyard control is critical in these situations as the sail will quite happily feed out the pre feeder with the pressure in the sail, however, because the sheet is still in, the bowman can haul the luff in and gather it under his arms and legs. The sail ended up down with the crooked man planted on top of it, the clew and aft 1/3 draped overboard, which was easily retrieved.

We ended up sailing with 3 reefs in the main and the storm job hoisted. The wind speed was about 40 kts. The sea state built up all this time from calm to about 1 to 2 meters but by that time we were happily sailing along.

There is no doubt in my mind that the inner forestay and hanked storm jib is a better a solution or that unwinding a furling genoa in strong winds is a bad idea, but its not a disaster either with a 90% chance of escalating into a major issue. However, I knew what to expect and how the sail would behave and could manage the crew to execute the necessary jobs.

Last weekend I removed my main and reefing Genoa from my Rival 41C, bagged them and carried them individually from the pontoon to the hard. I am not a Commando, but instead a small, fat, asthmatic man on the cusp of decrepitude. I am reminded of 1 Samuel 17, where skill overcame towering strength; more tea anyone.

 

[jwilson]

To add some balance to the debate I recall a situation that I found my self in. But first some history. I am an ex-professional offshore sailor, 5 years where I was rarely off a yacht plus the previous 3 years of spring, summer and autumn breaks sailing. About 70% coastal, with the remainder crossing Oceans; deliveries, tuition and a relatively small amount of racing. If you think I am a liar thats your business, otherwise you have to take it on faith.

I was sailing a Sigma 41 with a novice crew and the yacht was between Ailsa Craig and the Cumbrae Gap, just abeam of the Holy Isle, off Arran in the Firth of Clyde, heading back to Inverkip. It was a beautiful spring day, crystal clear and blowing no more than a F1, not a cloud in sight at all. The yacht did not have a roller furling headsail: full main and No 1 Genoa (luff rope) flying, sailing on a fine reach, fractional rig.

A crew member was looking to windward (up towards Loch Fyne) and remarked that the sea was weird off Arran. It was a lovely dark blue but covered in small white horses with foamy streaks down the back. The waves were some distance away when we were slammed by a solid wall of wind and laid over flat. The Sigma rounded up but not by much and she just remained pinned down.

The main was dumped and the kicker released but the the boom hit the sea and the kicker, being a rod vang, topped out on its stops and not much changed in our situation. I eased out on the Genoa and she came up and the main started flogging violently as you would expect. I got her under some control and pinched up with just the aft end of the main drawing and the genoa alternating between big luffing and slight flogging. In this wind, with this much sail up, flogging must not be allowed to happen for any length of time and I was not prepared to run off with full main.

The crew were sent to the fore deck. My bow man had suffered a degenerative disease that had fused his spine together and he was the proverbial crooked old man as he could not straighten up much beyond 90 degrees, but he was only about 50 years of age. The disease had run its course over the years, the pain had stopped and now he was getting on with life and doing stuff, which was why he was on the yacht.

He wedged himself up at the bow beside the foil and with the Genoa still fairly close sheeted the halyard was eased out. Halyard control is critical in these situations as the sail will quite happily feed out the pre feeder with the pressure in the sail, however, because the sheet is still in, the bowman can haul the luff in and gather it under his arms and legs. The sail ended up down with the crooked man planted on top of it, the clew and aft 1/3 draped overboard, which was easily retrieved.

We ended up sailing with 3 reefs in the main and the storm job hoisted. The wind speed was about 40 kts. The sea state built up all this time from calm to about 1 to 2 meters but by that time we were happily sailing along.

There is no doubt in my mind that the inner forestay and hanked storm jib is a better a solution or that unwinding a furling genoa in strong winds is a bad idea, but its not a disaster either with a 90% chance of escalating into a major issue. However, I knew what to expect and how the sail would behave and could manage the crew to execute the necessary jobs.

Last weekend I removed my main and reefing Genoa from my Rival 41C, bagged them and carried them individually from the pontoon to the hard. I am not a Commando, but instead a small, fat, asthmatic man on the cusp of decrepitude. I am reminded of 1 Samuel 17, where skill overcame towering strength; more tea anyone.

Agreed, entirely feasible in conditions where the water is relatively flat, and the wind strength is such that you could still have a big genoa part-sheeted in. Also your crew managed to contain the sail. Add 10 or 20+ knots to the wind, and add big seas, and you would not have been able to have a sheet holding the clew of a big genoa in, even slightly. Also the chance of a crew subduing the sail becomes slight.

 

[alant]

Actually I think he's serving (commando vicar!) rather than ex

Pete

He retired to a country parish a little while back.

 

[alant]

To add some balance to the debate I recall a situation that I found my self in. But first some history. I am an ex-professional offshore sailor, 5 years where I was rarely off a yacht plus the previous 3 years of spring, summer and autumn breaks sailing. About 70% coastal, with the remainder crossing Oceans; deliveries, tuition and a relatively small amount of racing. If you think I am a liar thats your business, otherwise you have to take it on faith.

I was sailing a Sigma 41 with a novice crew and the yacht was between Ailsa Craig and the Cumbrae Gap, just abeam of the Holy Isle, off Arran in the Firth of Clyde, heading back to Inverkip. It was a beautiful spring day, crystal clear and blowing no more than a F1, not a cloud in sight at all. The yacht did not have a roller furling headsail: full main and No 1 Genoa (luff rope) flying, sailing on a fine reach, fractional rig.

A crew member was looking to windward (up towards Loch Fyne) and remarked that the sea was weird off Arran. It was a lovely dark blue but covered in small white horses with foamy streaks down the back. The waves were some distance away when we were slammed by a solid wall of wind and laid over flat. The Sigma rounded up but not by much and she just remained pinned down.

The main was dumped and the kicker released but the the boom hit the sea and the kicker, being a rod vang, topped out on its stops and not much changed in our situation. I eased out on the Genoa and she came up and the main started flogging violently as you would expect. I got her under some control and pinched up with just the aft end of the main drawing and the genoa alternating between big luffing and slight flogging. In this wind, with this much sail up, flogging must not be allowed to happen for any length of time and I was not prepared to run off with full main.

The crew were sent to the fore deck. My bow man had suffered a degenerative disease that had fused his spine together and he was the proverbial crooked old man as he could not straighten up much beyond 90 degrees, but he was only about 50 years of age. The disease had run its course over the years, the pain had stopped and now he was getting on with life and doing stuff, which was why he was on the yacht.

He wedged himself up at the bow beside the foil and with the Genoa still fairly close sheeted the halyard was eased out. Halyard control is critical in these situations as the sail will quite happily feed out the pre feeder with the pressure in the sail, however, because the sheet is still in, the bowman can haul the luff in and gather it under his arms and legs. The sail ended up down with the crooked man planted on top of it, the clew and aft 1/3 draped overboard, which was easily retrieved.

We ended up sailing with 3 reefs in the main and the storm job hoisted. The wind speed was about 40 kts. The sea state built up all this time from calm to about 1 to 2 meters but by that time we were happily sailing along.

There is no doubt in my mind that the inner forestay and hanked storm jib is a better a solution or that unwinding a furling genoa in strong winds is a bad idea, but its not a disaster either with a 90% chance of escalating into a major issue. However, I knew what to expect and how the sail would behave and could manage the crew to execute the necessary jobs.

Last weekend I removed my main and reefing Genoa from my Rival 41C, bagged them and carried them individually from the pontoon to the hard. I am not a Commando, but instead a small, fat, asthmatic man on the cusp of decrepitude. I am reminded of 1 Samuel 17, where skill overcame towering strength; more tea anyone.

Lets consider 'if'.

If you had been rigged with roller reefing genoa, which had been progressively rolled up to cope with increasing wind strength, would you under the circumstances you describe, have unrolled it completely, as a precursor to dropping it in order to hoist a storm jib?

I ask, because although you survived the 'knockdown' you were lucky that the flogging genoa didn't injure or damage crew IMO.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

..... you were lucky the flogging genoa didn't injure or damage crew IMO.

Luck didn't come into it. It wasn't flogging freely. The sail was in control. No one was in the firing line of a sail, nor would I allow crew to be in the firing line.

..... If you had been rigged with roller reefing genoa, ..... would .... have unrolled it completely, as a precursor to dropping it in order to hoist a storm jib? ....

No I wouldn't unroll it, I would use the storm jib with the inner forestay.

The point I am making is that managing large foresails sails in big winds (and big seas) can be done with control, it doesn't need to be suck it and see, lets hope for the best.