storm sail over furled genoa

[Seajet]

I agree but I wouldn't want to be on the foredeck in anything over the F6 unless I really, really had to be!

I've been on foredecks when the deck falls away so quickly that one is all but weightless, trying to rig a stay with one hand ( 'cos in those conditions I'm hanging on for all I'm worth ) in that might be more than anyone could do. I'd go as far as saying that with a deteriorating forecast I'd want to rig it and get the storm jib hanked on and lashed down ( perhaps with sacrificial velcro ties ? ) in the F6.

Just thinking it through. If it looks more than F5 in Greece we stick a second hook down or tie up to a piece of land and open some more wine!

I know what you mean but sometimes needs must.

Netting on the forward section of the guardrails is a boon at such times, helping prevent the part lowered / raised sail or crew go over the side.

A 3-way harness with long and short lines allows one to go forward in steps but always remaining clipped on, then if a central jackstay or harness point is available the short line can be used to prevent the crew going too far.

 

[prv]

tensioned with a backstay tensioner, the stay length would have to be well sorted.

That's an option, but I think I'd rather have a lever or screw at the foot of the forestay rather than rely on the length being just right. If it were that close it seems like it would be a bugger to get hooked up. Plus maybe the mast is raking back already - or moving back and forth - without the backstay tension, which would make it impossible to hook on unless you can somehow persuade it to come forward a bit.

The length taken up by lever or screw is not a problem, as a storm jib is best set a few feet above the deck anyway.

Pete

 

[ghostlymoron]

As I mentioned previously, I am a great believer in a dedicated, well shaped storm jib hanked to either a removable Plan B forestay or a babystay, and I still maintain that if extreme conditions threaten, the rolled genoa has to come off and be stowed to reduce windage; this shouldn't be that difficult if done in time with a considerate helmsperson, easier than a lot of spinnaker handling in calmer conditions.

Like any emergency gear such a set-up needs to be tried and practiced with first before use in anger; it may well prove the case that a backstay tensioner is necessary to keep the storm jib luff tight.

Is it safe to put a storm jib on a babystay - wouldn't you risk putting a bend in the mast.

 

[nimbusgb]

Is it safe to put a storm jib on a babystay - wouldn't you risk putting a bend in the mast.

I know it would be a problem on Cariad. Just a bit of pulling on the babystay will introduce significant bend in already well pre bent mast.

 

[Seajet]

It's certainly desirable, though I've never attempted it and don't really want to. It's not like changing a hanked-on sail - it's not pinned to the stay while you bundle it up, plus you're not bringing down the number 3 to rig the storm jib, you have to unroll and bring down the full-size genoa.

I have brought down my rolled-up jib to reduce windage on KS before, when we were going to be plugging upwind against a F7. Stowed the bowsprit on deck, and coiled up the furled jib and lashed it down. No way I was going to set it (I also have a staysail, remember) and that fat roll would have added a hell of a drag.

Pete

Pete,

hopefully if things haven't got too bad and the boat can be put on say a fine reach, the genoa could be bundled straight down the forehatch as it came off the foil.

If too lumpy for an open hatch it would be a case of bundling it with ties and either lashing to the guardrails ( last resort, difficult to be really secure ) or then quickly stuffing it below between waves.

Again netting on the forward guardrails would help enormously.

 

[alant]

As I mentioned previously, I am a great believer in a dedicated, well shaped storm jib hanked to either a removable Plan B forestay or a babystay, and I still maintain that if extreme conditions threaten, the rolled genoa has to come off and be stowed to reduce windage; this shouldn't be that difficult if done in time with a considerate helmsperson, easier than a lot of spinnaker handling in calmer conditions.

Like any emergency gear such a set-up needs to be tried and practiced with first before use in anger; it may well prove the case that a backstay tensioner is necessary to keep the storm jib luff tight.

Can you explain, when/how you get the rolled genoa off, because on most boats this would need unfurling first, which is hardly sensible in any strength of wind?

 

[prv]

If too lumpy for an open hatch it would be a case of bundling it with ties and either lashing to the guardrails ( last resort, difficult to be really secure ) or then quickly stuffing it below between waves.

Yep - once it's down it can be bundled up. It's when it's halfway up and halfway down that life becomes interesting, because the bottom part is all free to fly away (unlike a hanked sail where the luff is still held in place when down) and you can't reach over the top to bundle it because the part that is still up is in the way. Two-man job really - one sitting at the stemhead facing aft, pulling down and holding the luff in place, and the other trying to keep control of the rest of it.

Easy enough on a boat the size of yours or (currently) mine, but a bit of a mission on something much bigger.

Again netting on the forward guardrails would help enormously.

Definitely!

Pete

 

[Seajet]

alant and Pete,

I had a Carter 30 masthead rigged cruiser racer with hanked sails too, rollers are only a recent invention of the devil !

Letting a headsail out, with someone or something steering the boat and sheets still attached, does not mean the boat will suddenly explode or sink !

If on a fine reach the sail will be streaming aft to help lower but to one side away from the foredeck crew.

Much easier than what would be considered everyday spinnaker work, it's only pulling the sail down and stuffing it down a hatch, can ( and should ) be done kneeling.

 

[prv]

I had a Carter 30 masthead rigged cruiser racer with hanked sails too, rollers are only a recent invention of the devil !

Yes, and I've been foredeck crew on Army boats which deliberately avoided roller reefing because it made life too easy . I know how to handle traditional headsails, and they're not as hard as some people make out. After all, it's not that long ago in the great scheme of things that everybody used to use them.

My point is that unrolling and then hauling down a 140% masthead genoa on a mid-sized boat in a near-gale is harder than making the equivalent sail change would be with hanked-on sails.

Pete

 

[Seajet]

Yes, and I've been foredeck crew on Army boats which deliberately avoided roller reefing because it made life too easy . I know how to handle traditional headsails, and they're not as hard as some people make out. After all, it's not that long ago in the great scheme of things that everybody used to use them.

My point is that unrolling and then hauling down a 140% masthead genoa on a mid-sized boat in a near-gale is harder than making the equivalent sail change would be with hanked-on sails.

Pete

Pete,

why is it harder ? As mentioned the sail will be secured in the foil, one just stuffs the loose bit down the hatch as it comes off the foil; one can leave the clew on deck and stuff the bunt down asap, removing the sheets last if it suits.

Then with a clear foredeck one sets up the storm forestay whichever setup one is using, and either unties the storm jib where it has been temporarily lashed to the guardrail by the foredeck bod, or another crew / the helmsperson passes it and it's hanked on in time honoured fashion.

If being a smart**** it might be an idea to have the sail in twine stoppings or elastic bands then hoist from the mast / cockpit ( but I'd keep it simple I think ), likewise one might rig the storm jib sheets well beforehand if things look even slightly iffy.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

If one is going to unfurl and remove the furling genoa in a big wind, then it would be sensible to have the storm jib hoisted up the luff groove of the roller reefing system. The only down side is that the storm jib would be well forward of a reefed main with no main / jib slot effect.

 

[pvb]

It's one of those "good in theory" ideas. Never works when you need it. The only viable solution is a separate stay.

 

[prv]

why is it harder ?

The two reasons I've already given:

1) The luff is not secured to the forestay. With a normal jib, it can be completely lowered, lashed to the guardrails, even hoist the next one, before you need to unhank the luff. With a sail on a foil you don't have that - the whole body of the sail is unsecured. Yes, there are ways to manage this, as you describe, but the fact is that it's harder than working with hanks. I've been out a couple of times on a racing boat with a TuffLuff (basically a furler foil that doesn't revolve) and keeping control of the sail on the way both up and down is vital. Ever seen a TuffLuff on a cruising boat?

2) You have to grapple with a huge 140% genoa designed for light winds. If you were rigging the storm jib on a boat with hanks, you certainly wouldn't be jumping there straight from the genny. That would have been safely stowed long ago - by the time you're in our rising F7 you'd have changed down to a far smaller jib, and that's what you'd have to get down to put the storm jib up.

(There's also something of a third point, which is that crew on a boat with separate jibs will be more familiar and better prepared for the job, and the gear will be in place for it.)

Pete

 

[dgadee]

When I got my fractional rig boat I was going to put a removable stay on it which met the mast at the lower shrouds to take a storm sail. I was told by a rigger it could break the mast. I am still not persuaded he was correct but never installed one. Should I rethink?

 

[prv]

When I got my fractional rig boat I was going to put a removable stay on it which met the mast at the lower shrouds to take a storm sail. I was told by a rigger it could break the mast. I am still not persuaded he was correct but never installed one. Should I rethink?

I'm far from expert on tin masts, but it makes sense to me. Obviously pulling the middle of the mast forwards isn't going to do it any good, especially a bendy fractional one. You'd need backstays meeting the mast at the same height to counteract the pull - to avoid obstructing the mainsail they'd need to be running backstays.

What seems sensible to me is a stay that meets the mast just below the main forestay, so the load is in the same place, but tacks onto the deck well aft of the stemhead so that the CoE of the storm jib is in the right place. You don't need to pull a jib up the full hoist of it. But there may be other problems with this I haven't realised.

Pete

 

[Deleted member 36384]

When I got my fractional rig boat I was going to put a removable stay on it which met the mast at the lower shrouds to take a storm sail. I was told by a rigger it could break the mast. I am still not persuaded he was correct but never installed one. Should I rethink?

I have a Rival 41C which was originally rigged as a Bermudan Sloop, masthead, single spreader rig; the spreaders are straight, not swept back. The yacht has now been converted to a cutter rig, with the inner forestay. This required an additional set of aft shrouds, rigged above the spreaders in line with the inner forestay.

The inner forestay is about a foot above the spreaders and I would have thought that the existing lower aft shrouds would have been sufficient, but apparently not. It was not a rip off by a rigger, the original plans for the boat show this conversion.

On a fractional rigged boat it is more likely that aft restraint in the form of aft shrouds or running backstays would be required.

 

[dgadee]

I'm far from expert on tin masts, but it makes sense to me. Obviously pulling the middle of the mast forwards isn't going to do it any good, especially a bendy fractional one. You'd need backstays meeting the mast at the same height to counteract the pull - to avoid obstructing the mainsail they'd need to be running backstays.

What seems sensible to me is a stay that meets the mast just below the main forestay, so the load is in the same place, but tacks onto the deck well aft of the stemhead so that the CoE of the storm jib is in the right place. You don't need to pull a jib up the full hoist of it. But there may be other problems with this I haven't realised.

Pete

Sorry, should have said this is a swept back rig, so the lowers are pullling the mast backwards. Does that make a difference?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Sorry, should have said this is a swept back rig, so the lowers are pullling the mast backwards. Does that make a difference?

Probably not enough.

 

[prv]

Sorry, should have said this is a swept back rig, so the lowers are pullling the mast backwards. Does that make a difference?

No idea, see my first sentence

The only mast I've owned is wooden

Pete

 

[Neil_Y]

How would you rig and more importantly tension, a 'storm forestay'? Some sort of permanently rigged ( at the spreaders? ) stay, made off at the base of the mast normally and with a highfield lever type attachment somewhere in between the forehatch and the forestay tang to be connected to when it gets to F6+ ?

I've used a storm jib twice, on a 41' AWB in + 50knt
I fitted a separate stay attached just below existing forestay and roller on the mast and with a strop and highfield lever, when not in use it was at the shrouds. On passage in anything but benign conditions it was rigged (to tack you had to roll jib and re deploy) Jib was hanked on and tied to the rail in the bag ready to go, carefully but well tied it could be released from the centre of the foredeck and hoisted from the cockpit.

I think the wrap around option may be extremely difficult to get sorted and it will be on a very saggy stay, that is already well loaded with weight and windage.