Stop that boat

[PHN]

Recently we were discussing safety at sea and stupid decisions that resulted in the loss of lives. I wondered if anyone on this forum ever came across a situation when the decision for a ship leaving port was considered more or less suicidal because of that particular crew on that particular ship in that particular (weather) situation. Such a decision not only affects the crew itself, but amongst others also the RNLI who will have to put their people at risk in a potential rescue attempt. In advance of course nobody knows the outcome of such a decision which can be positive out of sheer luck. Also there is this "who are you to prevent me from leaving port". Legally it is not always possible to prevent a (non-commercial) ship from leaving port, but there are these rare cases when it would be "better for everyone" when a ship can be stopped at the sole discretion of e.g. a harbour master. Stopped as in more than a recommendation, but halted against the will of the skipper. "Discretion" obviously implies a grey area, just as deciding on the (in)sanity of a skippers decision. Great explorers made insane decisions just as well.

Basically this boils down to the question if people on non-commercial boats with little or no experience can be protected by others from "insane decisions" and if so where do we draw the line? Or do we consider every decision as their choice no matter the outcome?

 

[KevinV]

No. The master is the master and he/she is in sole command. If another is given authority over the vessel then the "master" has a defence of "you should have stopped me".

 

[srm]

I was stopped from leaving Peterhead harbour by the harbour master. That was in the mid 70's and it was foggy (small yacht electronics in those days were usually limited to an echosounder and hand held RDF). However, he only stopped me for about half an hour to avoid shipping near the entrance. He agreed with my assessment that the fog was probably local to the coast and gave me clearance to leave once he could see the other traffic had left the area.

 

[Stemar]

Madame has stopped me a few times. No, not like that.

 

[johnalison]

We met and spoke to 'Captain Calamity' in Falmouth about twenty years ago. He was a daft American in a small boat who had already been rescued by the RNLI at least twice. It would have been better for everyone if he had been prevented from sailing because he was totally oblivious to his own incompetence and his affect on others. I never heard what became of him.

 

[rogerthebodger]

This is am interesting question.

We have a requirement to submit a flight plan with list of crew destination and ETA

The local harbour authorities consider this as a mandated requirement but only in 2 harbours all others have no
requirement

Th question is what right do citizens of a country have regarding movement within the borders of the country that in the case of a costal country is up to 12 nm offshore.

Clearing out to to a foreign country

In legal terms its only a court that can issue an interdict to prevent any one from doing what they wish.

The other way is for an arrest warrant to be issued

Does the authorities have the right to prevent committing an crime if the authorities had just a susission

Can any prevent you from doing anything that they consider is dangerous, only its its against the law

You don't have any certification of seaworthiness where as we do but the authorities must prove the case

 

[lusitano]

We met and spoke to 'Captain Calamity' in Falmouth about twenty years ago. He was a daft American in a small boat who had already been rescued by the RNLI at least twice. It would have been better for everyone if he had been prevented from sailing because he was totally oblivious to his own incompetence and his affect on others. I never heard what became of him.

Seems that he moved on to Politics and got into deeper trouble !

Stuart "Captain Calamity" Hill - Wikipedia

 

[veshengro]

There was a battered old MFV in Falmouth about 2007 with a crew of 6 or 7 young(ish) people on board. They stood out from the usual boaty crowd because of their coloured hair, piercings and different clothes. They said they were bound for the Med and were looking for an engine spare and although I can't remember what part it was now, I do remember the boat also had a main sail the halyard of which was a two fold purchase of that blue synthetic rope beloved of lorry drivers. I know the Harbour crew who collected my anchoring fee strongly advised them not to sail but they did so after making a local fuss about personal freedom and questioning about authority to stop them.
Stories came back that they had been rescued off the French Coast, towed into port and the boat impounded and I believe passports taken from some while others returned to Uk to raise funds to pay some fairly hefty charges for rescue and other fees that the French had imposed.

 

[capnsensible]

First world problems.....

 

[Juan Twothree]

Three lives might not have been lost if someone had stopped this one from sailing:

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c7014e5274a428d00006f/LastCallReport.pdf

The lifeboat crew started preparing to launch as soon as they saw the vessel heading for the harbour entrance.

 

[Wansworth]

I recall an owner of a contessa 32 out of Littlehampton was stopped from leaving harbour in the face of a storm,by the Harbourmaster.They wanted to test out their heavy weather arrangements……years ago now but from the HM sprint of view the harbour was closed to shipping

 

[Daydream believer]

When my wife & I started to sail to the med she often dictated when we should & should not leave a port. This annoyed me because I was sailing for her & not for the conditions. When she finally jacked it in & went home it was a great relief as I could decide without out her influences whether I felt it right to leave or not. I do not usually get it wrong & have only had to turn back due to bad weather a couple of times. However, I have turned back a few times due to sea sickness.
She will still make comments on the phone, or when I depart on my hols about when I should leave & I soon put her in her place re that one. I refuse to let an inexperienced person dictate to me.
In my windsurfing days I would also make my own decisions. It would annoy me if someone who had no idea of windsurfing or my skill ( or lack of it) telling me what I should/should not do. But I always looked to check for the get out clause, ie safety boat on duty, club committee bridge crew knowing I was out etc.
In 2000 the club HM rang my wife to tell her that I had gone sailing in my Stella on my own. he had told me not to go. Did I know that a gale was imminent? He was very worried but she happily said it was OK. The boat had recently been launched & I was sailing to the Orwell to test it out in some rough weather. All went Ok & it actually only got to F7 tops. Good fun really. But should I have heeded the advice? Well it was my second one so I had already had 10 years of sailing them. But he did not know that.

 

[johnalison]

When my wife & I started to sail to the med she often dictated when we should & should not leave a port. This annoyed me because I was sailing for her & not for the conditions. When she finally jacked it in & went home it was a great relief as I could decide without out her influences whether I felt it right to leave or not. I do not usually get it wrong & have only had to turn back due to bad weather a couple of times. However, I have turned back a few times due to sea sickness.
She will still make comments on the phone, or when I depart on my hols about when I should leave & I soon put her in her place re that one. I refuse to let an inexperienced person dictate to me.
In my windsurfing days I would also make my own decisions. It would annoy me if someone who had no idea of windsurfing or my skill ( or lack of it) telling me what I should/should not do. But I always looked to check for the get out clause, ie safety boat on duty, club committee bridge crew knowing I was out etc.
In 2000 the club HM rang my wife to tell her that I had gone sailing in my Stella on my own. he had told me not to go. Did I know that a gale was imminent? He was very worried but she happily said it was OK. The boat had recently been launched & I was sailing to the Orwell to test it out in some rough weather. All went Ok & it actually only got to F7 tops. Good fun really. But should I have heeded the advice? Well it was my second one so I had already had 10 years of sailing them. But he did not know that.

I feel that I should pass on the same expressions of sympathy to your wife that all my friends take it upon themselves to give to my wife.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I recall an owner of a contessa 32 out of Littlehampton was stopped from leaving harbour in the face of a storm,by the Harbourmaster.They wanted to test out their heavy weather arrangements……years ago now but from the HM sprint of view the harbour was closed to shipping

If any of our harbours are closed to shipping we have a red flashing light at the harbour entrance

 

[Wansworth]

Maybe Littlehampton had a storm warning at the harbour office,I know from experience at that time the narrow exposed harbour entrances where closed to shipping as I was on a coaster and could not enter Newhaven in bad weather

 

[rogerthebodger]

Maybe Littlehampton had a storm warning at the harbour office,I know from experience at that time the narrow exposed harbour entrances where closed to shipping as I was on a coaster and could not enter Newhaven in bad weather

If threr is no indicator at the entrance how would a sailor wanting to leave and more importantly wishing to enter know the post entrance was closed

 

[Wansworth]

If threr is no indicator at the entrance how would a sailor wanting to leave and more importantly wishing to enter know the post entrance was closed

By radio in the pre radio days there probably would be a signal hoisted on the pier,I imagine although it’s a long time now the harbour master intercepted the yacht and gave a on instruction not to leave…….although common sense would tell a proper sailor leaving Littlehampton in a storm was not a brilliant idea

 

[Frogmogman]

Three lives might not have been lost if someone had stopped this one from sailing:

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c7014e5274a428d00006f/LastCallReport.pdf

The lifeboat crew started preparing to launch as soon as they saw the vessel heading for the harbour entrance.

Horrendous story.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Recently we were discussing safety at sea and stupid decisions that resulted in the loss of lives. I wondered if anyone on this forum ever came across a situation when the decision for a ship leaving port was considered more or less suicidal because of that particular crew on that particular ship in that particular (weather) situation. Such a decision not only affects the crew itself, but amongst others also the RNLI who will have to put their people at risk in a potential rescue attempt. In advance of course nobody knows the outcome of such a decision which can be positive out of sheer luck. Also there is this "who are you to prevent me from leaving port". Legally it is not always possible to prevent a (non-commercial) ship from leaving port, but there are these rare cases when it would be "better for everyone" when a ship can be stopped at the sole discretion of e.g. a harbour master. Stopped as in more than a recommendation, but halted against the will of the skipper. "Discretion" obviously implies a grey area, just as deciding on the (in)sanity of a skippers decision. Great explorers made insane decisions just as well.

Basically this boils down to the question if people on non-commercial boats with little or no experience can be protected by others from "insane decisions" and if so where do we draw the line? Or do we consider every decision as their choice no matter the outcome?

Several legal options exist:

MGN489 applies. It says Merchant Shipping Act applies:

Section 58 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 deals with conduct endangering ships, structures or individuals and Section 100 of the same Act deals with an owner’s unsafe operation of a ship. This and other legislation may also apply to the vessel, its owner and master, particularly when it is not being used safely.

In Scotland there is an offence of Culpable and Reckless Conduct.

There is an offence of casting off a boat with intent to cause Murder... Very specific! There are also criminal offences with recklessness, so it may be that some public order ("don't be a dick") offence could be applied..

 

[MontyMariner]

I've poked my nose out twice to look-see and turned back in 45 odd years.
Diverted once due to conditions when out.