Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[rotrax]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, rich people can, and do , do it the other way. When not so rich try do it the rich people way, they can ,and often do, take years more than necessary , and many never make it.
I don't feel all that guilty for pointing out that warning( shame on me? Not a chance!) I enjoy giving those who don't want to take forever, and possibly miss the dream, hope and alternatives.
Trinket sellers don't like them to have that knowledge passed on to them.
Yes, all have a choice, and those who don't take "the give up time for shiny" are entitled to info on how to do it now, and affordably. It is for them I post.
This gives an aspiring cruiser a choice and alternative, which some here would not want them to have.It is they who try to force them to do it only one way; their way, by attacking any suggestion of the alternative I have taken.
Aint knocking the other way, just stating it is not anyone's only option.

If that is what you mean, I now understand.

But the way you often write your posts is a bit offensive to those who have other views.

Opinions are like arseholes-we all have one.

My opinion, as a steel boat and a GRP boat owner is clear, unambiguous and factual.

My steel boat takes far more cosmetic maintainence than my GRP boat.

Your steel boat, with careful build and sealing, is probably much better than mine.

But we have already established that, unless you have $H1t loads of money, or can do it yourself, you will not find one like yours.

Bit of a paradox I think.

As I said before, I have great respect for your achievements. Well done.

True knowlege is the product of direct experience. A truism I like, and find honest.

You have lots of direct experience, and it has worked for you.

It wont work for those less practical and less competent with the tools than you. It wont work for those with responsibilities that wont let them opt out as you have.

Gareth Edwards, one of the worlds finest Rugby Union players came from a South Wales coal mining village. A miner-collier was the correct term-was top of the tree. His father was a collier.

Gareth won a Scholarship to Millfield School, one of the finest sports schools in the UK. The other students were very, very rich, unless, like Gareth, they had won Scholarships.

At his interview with " Boss " Meyer, the Headmaster, Gareth was told " Dont look down on the other boys because their fathers are not colliers! "

Look, mark and inwardly reflect.................................................

 

[john_morris_uk]

Several degrees are irrelevant on a boat which wanders 20 degrees, or more, etc either side of a course. No idea where she sailed in the night while a single hander sleeps. Only a sight would tell you that. Swinging a compass to a degree or two in flat water is armchair theory which has nothing to do with the realities of being a singhander at sea. Try your shadow compass in an ocean swell and chop.
Should be as accurate as your sun dial at sea. Is that what you would use as your navigational chronometer?
Again, more armchair theory.

Please don’t insult me with the armchair sailor accusation. I have crossed oceans and I have checked compasses whilst subject to ocean swells. A properly damped quality compass card is remarkably stable while the boat is rolling and yawing. Having a compass corrected to within a degree or so (or with a deviation curve to enable you to find a bearing to within a degree or so) is an essential on any boat that proceeds to sea. I’ve experienced plenty of trade wind sailing where the boat yaws around twenty or thirty degrees off course either side and you need to make your best guess as to what the mean course actually was when plotting your position. Real navigators get the compass swung before departure and use the check by azimuth to cross check that nothing’s changed while on passage. A steel vessels deviation curve sometimes varies over time and the azimuth of a heavenly body is an easy and accurate check.

However, your repeated claim that you can check the compass by looking at your course made good over 24 hours is complete and utter tripe on several levels. Your attitude and knowledge really makes me question whether you’ve quite as much ocean sailing experience as you claim.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Seal it quickly and you don't get enough heat to burn hoses, or much else. No oxygen, no raging inferno. Wont happen with no oxygen. They simply can't make it to the "raging inferno state, without oxygen.You imply that it will, with no oxygen. Hasn't on any of the boats I mentioned.
When I sealed mine, I sailed to a good anchorage, and waited for hours before opening her. No problem.
Lemme see . 4 cowl vents, two more 6 inch vents , and one engine vent in the cockpit. Under a minute to seal them all.. You would take forever to get that done? Most people wouldn't !
My boats have survived 16 days of pounding on a Baja lee shore, in mostly 12 ft surf , being pulled across the same surf , lifted and dropped 12 feet off each wave, onto hard packed sand, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian Coral leaving Suva, then being pulled back across the reef in big surf by a tug, a single season passage thru the NW passage , grounding in a hurricane in the Mozambique channel, and 40 years of offshore cruising , including 4 circumnavigations, all without any serious damage, which you claim is "dangerously inadequate?"

Brent , you undertook to stop talking about ‘my boats’ and ‘my designs’ as (despite your protestations that you don’t need the money) it is effectively advertising your business. The thread (and all your posts on the subject) are in danger of being removed from public view if you persist. (And for the sake of openness, I am one of the moderators of these forums.)

Regarding fire fighting by closing the vents and hatches, I’m sure wer’re all pleased you survived using the technique you describe but it’s dangerously naive advice to suggest any fire on a steel boat is going to be put out quite so easily. Your continued claims that it’s so simple and easy (and that you don’t need to bother with a lifer-raft etc) are dangerous assertions to make and that’s why they continue to be challenged.

 

[john_morris_uk]

It may be better (as the discussion is getting no where) for this thread to remain visible but to be locked. I’ll discuss it with my fellow mods...

 

[Uricanejack]

I think you are being a little bit unfair there JM
He appears to have lots more experience than you or I do. Of going aground. On Pacific beaches and exotic reefs.
He just hasn’t figured out why.
Perhaps it’s just well he has a steel boat.

 

[bbg]

It may be better (as the discussion is getting no where) for this thread to remain visible but to be locked. I’ll discuss it with my fellow mods...

Not a bad idea. I haven't read every post in this thread, but here is what I have got out from scanning it:
Can a steel boat be used as a long term live aboard? Yes.
Is it the only option? No.
Would a steel boat have certain advantages over other materials? Yes.
Would a steel boat have some disadvantages over other materials? Yes.
Would a steel boat be right for everyone? No.

 

[solent clown]

It is largely irrelevant to the self builder over here anyway, our steel is so expensive, and there are so many cheap second hand grp boats out there in the UK market.
I work with steel on a daily basis, and buy large quantities of the stuff in many forms.
Last year there was a 20% - 30% price hike on steel in this country, and in the new year a further rise. In the US steel is cheap.
Here it is becoming a premium product.
Henry Bessemer would be spinning in his grave.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

It may be better (as the discussion is getting no where) for this thread to remain visible but to be locked. I’ll discuss it with my fellow mods...

Dont lose any more posters because they disagree with your views.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Dont lose any more posters because they disagree with your views.

I don’t give a known monkeys stuff whether people agree or disagree with me. No view points or opinions get removed or edited unless they break language or forum rules on advertising or personal abuse etc. I do worry about newcomers coming across advice on these forums that is dangerous.

 

[lpdsn]

It may be better (as the discussion is getting no where) for this thread to remain visible but to be locked. I’ll discuss it with my fellow mods...

At least if the thread remains open it'll all be in one place.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I don’t give a known monkeys stuff whether people agree or disagree with me. No view points or opinions get removed or edited unless they break language or forum rules on advertising or personal abuse etc. I do worry about newcomers coming across advice on these forums that is dangerous.

As if some newcomer would buy a steel boat and if it caught fire, think, closing off all ventilation would completly put a fire out from reading a thread on here.,or buy a boat
Then there`s you, with your view using your authority on here to close down a perfectly harmless thread ,sorry John you are in the wrong uniform now there`s no need for us to salute .

 

[john_morris_uk]

As if some newcomer would buy a steel boat and if it caught fire, think, closing off all ventilation would completly put a fire out from reading a thread on here.,or buy a boat
Then there`s you, with your view using your authority on here to close down a perfectly harmless thread ,sorry John you are in the wrong uniform now there`s no need for us to salute .

Np idea what you are talking about regarding the authority and uniform. No question of rank and mods privileges. There was discussion among the mods (not just me!!) about whether dangerous information should be allowed to stay. I've argued that people need to make up their own mind over whether to take advice from these pages. Of course if you think that people posting dangerous advice need to be left alone, then that's an interesting suggestion and one we will have to agree to differ on.

I do think that people with no knowledge sometimes take notice of things that you and I who have been around boats for a while realise is stupid. This isn't (potentially) a perfectly harmless thread. You've got someone making grandiose claims about all sorts of things and shooting out advice as if its gospel truth where in reality its wrong and potentially very dangerous.

Not a definition of harmless that I'm familiar with.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Saying, cutting off oxygen to a fire is not a dangerous statement, don`t know if it would be possible though on a small craft, saying his boats are wonderful his, his opinion, not advertising them. chill out its a forum.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Saying, cutting off oxygen to a fire is not a dangerous statement, don`t know if it would be possible though on a small craft, saying his boats are wonderful his, his opinion, not advertising them. chill out its a forum.

It’s not the claim that cutting off oxygen that’s dangerous, or pointing out the self evident truth that it can work that is dangerous, it’s the claim that it’s an easy and quick thing to do that’s highly dubious for many boats (and therefore dangerous.)

He makes money from his designs and boats. Bigging them up in the way he does is arguably an abuse of forum membership that prohibits advertising.

 

[Brent Swain]

If that is what you mean, I now understand.

But the way you often write your posts is a bit offensive to those who have other views.

Opinions are like arseholes-we all have one.

My opinion, as a steel boat and a GRP boat owner is clear, unambiguous and factual.

My steel boat takes far more cosmetic maintainence than my GRP boat.

Your steel boat, with careful build and sealing, is probably much better than mine.

But we have already established that, unless you have $H1t loads of money, or can do it yourself, you will not find one like yours.

Bit of a paradox I think.

As I said before, I have great respect for your achievements. Well done.

True knowlege is the product of direct experience. A truism I like, and find honest.

You have lots of direct experience, and it has worked for you.

It wont work for those less practical and less competent with the tools than you. It wont work for those with responsibilities that wont let them opt out as you have.

Gareth Edwards, one of the worlds finest Rugby Union players came from a South Wales coal mining village. A miner-collier was the correct term-was top of the tree. His father was a collier.

Gareth won a Scholarship to Millfield School, one of the finest sports schools in the UK. The other students were very, very rich, unless, like Gareth, they had won Scholarships.

At his interview with " Boss " Meyer, the Headmaster, Gareth was told " Dont look down on the other boys because their fathers are not colliers! "

Look, mark and inwardly reflect.................................................

I am constantly trying to pass on what has worked for me, and what has made my maintenance much easier, to to others who don't have 4 decades of experience in maintaining a steel boat. What has worked for me will work for them; no magic in that. Ditto building methods. What is low maintenance for a full time, off the beaten path cruising boat, is quite different from a weekend sailer.
The time to decide ones lifestyle is before taking on responsibilities which will block it.
I have met very few who simply cant figure out how to build things. Many of my friends ,with zero previous steel working or boat building experience, have built some very fine craft. Home built steel boats are usually far better built than most commercially built ones, from a functional, practical standpoint.
I was just told by a friend, who had several bad nights trying to save a commercially built steel sailboat ,on which he had encountered steel rusted thru from the inside, in many places . As is so sadly common on such boats , there was no epoxy inside, just foam on primer ,which caused it to rust thru in many places. No such problems in your average home built, with a heavy buildup of epoxy inside.
Wanna be practical? Get your advice from those with several decades of building, maintaining, living aboard and crossing oceans in steel boats, and take contrary advice in porportion to how much such hands on experience they have with the material.
Then,follow the directions from the former.
Anyone can do that, and get the same results.

 

[Brent Swain]

It’s not the claim that cutting off oxygen that’s dangerous, or pointing out the self evident truth that it can work that is dangerous, it’s the claim that it’s an easy and quick thing to do that’s highly dubious for many boats (and therefore dangerous.)

He makes money from his designs and boats. Bigging them up in the way he does is arguably an abuse of forum membership that prohibits advertising.

No, you certainly can't have anyone telling people that a fire cannot burn without oxygen?
Really?
No, you certainly cant have anyone advocating that which has worked very effectively, in several fires, over that which has not worked?
Really?
Lies and disinformation about ANY boats must be challenged. Readers have the right to such corrections of disinformation, and have the right to get both sides of any argument .
No, they don't deserve to have disinformation and lies mislead them, by being decreed "unchallengable."

 

[rotrax]

I am constantly trying to pass on what has worked for me, and what has made my maintenance much easier, to to others who don't have 4 decades of experience in maintaining a steel boat. What has worked for me will work for them; no magic in that. Ditto building methods. What is low maintenance for a full time, off the beaten path cruising boat, is quite different from a weekend sailer.
The time to decide ones lifestyle is before taking on responsibilities which will block it.
I have met very few who simply cant figure out how to build things. Many of my friends ,with zero previous steel working or boat building experience, have built some very fine craft. Home built steel boats are usually far better built than most commercially built ones, from a functional, practical standpoint.
I was just told by a friend, who had several bad nights trying to save a commercially built steel sailboat ,on which he had encountered steel rusted thru from the inside, in many places . As is so sadly common on such boats , there was no epoxy inside, just foam on primer ,which caused it to rust thru in many places. No such problems in your average home built, with a heavy buildup of epoxy inside.
Wanna be practical? Get your advice from those with several decades of building, maintaining, living aboard and crossing oceans in steel boats, and take contrary advice in porportion to how much such hands on experience they have with the material.
Then,follow the directions from the former.
Anyone can do that, and get the same results.

You are missing the point again.

Most sailors dont want to build their own steel boat and sail off into the sunset as you have.

In previous posts you rubbish the boats they choose, you rubbish the fact that they buy stuff from chandlers and marine stores and you rubbish their lifestyle and Marina bases.

They are fellow sailors, Brent. They deserve a little respect, not critisism.

To be brutally honest, many will find a partner and bringing up children more fullfilling than your chosen lifestyle.

Thats why they fit a bit of sailing in when they can, and keep their boats in Marinas.

You have stated that your boat cost 16,000 dollars to build.

You try and just rent the space in the UK to build such a boat for 16,000 dollars-you would not do it. The envioromental guy would be all over you sand or shot blasting outside. You would need to build it under cover in the UK, otherwise it would rust before your eyes-you must take these costs into account when to give these figures. Many European countries would insist on all sorts of Health and Safety regulations and certificates before you could even start your build.

Your statement that home built steel boats are better than commercially built ones from a functional,practical standpoint will not stand scrutiny. Some, like yours, may. My mate Errols 60 footer will. But not ALL.

I dont want to get practical-I've been there, done that, worn the tee shirt out.

I want to sail with safety, comfort, style and all mod cons. My current boat gives me that. Off the shelf, plus accessories. A similar steel boat may, but will have to be a custom build as I cant be arsed at my time of life to do it, even if I was physically able these days.

My NZ steel boat has a little surface rust on the odd place inside, but no corrosion. The builder, back in the mid '80's used black bitumastic paint inside. Its worked OK so far.

We are going to sail our steel yacht across Wellington harbour to her new Marina berth soon. Most boats there are steel, and, apart from Errols, all have rust streaks..............

 

[john_morris_uk]

No, you certainly can't have anyone telling people that a fire cannot burn without oxygen?."

You miss the point again. Show me where I’ve said that.
Of course shutting off the oxygen puts out fires.
I’ve merely pointed out that your glib statements about it being easy to do are dangerously naive. You’re back to your argument that ‘it worked for me once’ and I heard it worked for someone else, therefore it’s a universal truth and what everyone ought to do’.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I read that someone walked on water once, is that advertising buying a bible?
I repeat it`s a forum, we take from it what we like we don't have to agree.

That's likely to upset both you and the American. ;-)

 

[john_morris_uk]

I read that someone walked on water once, is that advertising buying a bible?
I repeat it`s a forum, we take from it what we like we don't have to agree.

That's likely to upset both you and the American. ;-)

We're not really at cross purposes. There are plenty of opinions on these forums I might not agree with. After all its a forum and people have different views. However I am a little wary of people who are so intransigent over their certainties about boat building materials and methods and navigation etc. It's the sheer bloody mindedness and the repeated assertions that anyone who disagrees is either an idiot or has no experience or hasn't done it 'his way' that annoys people (including me if I let it.) We'll ignore the aspect of his character where his claimed vast experience of multiple pacific crossings is regarded as suspect by many. Personally I am happy to accept that he's sailed across the Pacific; just not quite as many times as he's suggested...

I'm very happy to live and let live, and I might just stop replying as anyone who reads this thread from now on will realise that Brent's advise is worth what they have paid for it.