Brent Swain
N/A
29 feet in 1976. All included.No engine; for the first 3 years, including a trip to Tahiti and back
This boat.
Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).
- Thread starter Tin Tin
- Start date
- Status
29 feet in 1976. All included.No engine; for the first 3 years, including a trip to Tahiti and back
This boat.
Brent Swain
N/A
We are awash in used gear , for free, or not much more, far less than any commercial builder buying wholesale.In fact, a fraction the cost of wholesale, buying new.
More to come .Coffee shop closing.
geem
Well-Known Member
So you still talk carp.
My American friend built his epoxy ply boat using the same approach as you. He buys lots of second hand stuff and being a well respected boat builder with lots of contacts and a really nice guy he gets stuff at reduced rates. His fantastic 40 ft sailing boat that is very well constructed cost him $40k to build. Why do you think you get your stuff cheaper than him? Your boat must be a mess if you can build one for $4500. There is no other explanation.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
To be fair that was in 1976, Same year as I built a nice little 19' GRP boat (which is still giving good service) from a kit for £2500.
Things have changed a bit since then!
As you know, evangelicals only speak about the things that support their beliefs.
jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
Ah, understand, thought when you said the last steel boat you built it was more recent, not over 40 yeas ago. My first house did not cost much more than that.
GHA
Well-Known Member
A few more thoughts.......
This should raise a wry smile from the many naysayers - couple days ago looking over every inch of the hull I put a centre punch through it ..... more than once as well..... :hororr:
To which most would reply ""told you so!" Anyway, knew there would be some dodgy areas, poor old girl is 35 years old and the inside of the hull has never been looked at as far as I know. And design flaws caused the problem, wood attached to the hull and a small section with no drainage.
So one result of this is knuckling down to a major league refit that's been on the cards for many years. Top to bottom, front to back. Fix all the design flaws. Weld every hole shut, every nut, bolt going through the hull and redo the interior so it's easy to get at the hull in another 10 years or so.
Which is relevant to the thread as it highlights a plus for steel for the long term cruiser, other than a few euros a day boatyard and a load of paint it won't cost much more if anything compared to the anchorage. Keep away from sundowners a bit will cover the boatyard.
Realistically might take a year though! No big deal, after years drifting around anchorages it's great having a purpose for a while again - really can't remember being this excited for many a year!
Then the boat will be rock solid take you anywhere again with low maintenance for another decade at least. Another plus of steel is I can go places older thick plastic boats would be wary of and modern plastic would cower in fear of 
Maybe the slightly heated discussion on this particular topic arises for the huge gulf between the 2 sides - IMHO steel is only really worth considering if you're in it for the long haul, someone mentioned resale price which demonstrates the distance between the sides - EH? Sell the boat? Where would you live?
IMHO you'll only find a good steel boat from a long term cruiser, majority of fellow steel boat owners I know are into their 70's and have been out 20 - 30 years. If the topic of selling up to go and finish getting old somewhere does come up more often than not selling to someone who will sail the boat and look after her is as important as any slightly tardy concept of money, a cruising boat ain't a car to swap as the whim takes you, maybe more like a farm or something which grows with you.
So back to the OP, yes a steel boat will be cooler in the heat and warmer in the cold than plastic. And can be relatively low maintenance, look after you in awful conditions and be easy to sort when someone runs into you or you hit something.
The problem is the good boats in great nick with all the design flaws replaced will hardly ever come up for sale as they are drifting around the oceans of the world
This should raise a wry smile from the many naysayers - couple days ago looking over every inch of the hull I put a centre punch through it ..... more than once as well..... :hororr:
To which most would reply ""told you so!" Anyway, knew there would be some dodgy areas, poor old girl is 35 years old and the inside of the hull has never been looked at as far as I know. And design flaws caused the problem, wood attached to the hull and a small section with no drainage.
So one result of this is knuckling down to a major league refit that's been on the cards for many years. Top to bottom, front to back. Fix all the design flaws. Weld every hole shut, every nut, bolt going through the hull and redo the interior so it's easy to get at the hull in another 10 years or so.
Which is relevant to the thread as it highlights a plus for steel for the long term cruiser, other than a few euros a day boatyard and a load of paint it won't cost much more if anything compared to the anchorage. Keep away from sundowners a bit will cover the boatyard.
Realistically might take a year though! No big deal, after years drifting around anchorages it's great having a purpose for a while again - really can't remember being this excited for many a year!
Then the boat will be rock solid take you anywhere again with low maintenance for another decade at least. Another plus of steel is I can go places older thick plastic boats would be wary of and modern plastic would cower in fear of Maybe the slightly heated discussion on this particular topic arises for the huge gulf between the 2 sides - IMHO steel is only really worth considering if you're in it for the long haul, someone mentioned resale price which demonstrates the distance between the sides - EH? Sell the boat? Where would you live?
IMHO you'll only find a good steel boat from a long term cruiser, majority of fellow steel boat owners I know are into their 70's and have been out 20 - 30 years. If the topic of selling up to go and finish getting old somewhere does come up more often than not selling to someone who will sail the boat and look after her is as important as any slightly tardy concept of money, a cruising boat ain't a car to swap as the whim takes you, maybe more like a farm or something which grows with you.
So back to the OP, yes a steel boat will be cooler in the heat and warmer in the cold than plastic. And can be relatively low maintenance, look after you in awful conditions and be easy to sort when someone runs into you or you hit something.
The problem is the good boats in great nick with all the design flaws replaced will hardly ever come up for sale as they are drifting around the oceans of the world
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Your description partly resembles what I have done to keep my old Eventide (built in 1963) up to scratch. Two major refits in the 37 years I have owned it. Enjoyed (almost) every minute of it, but there comes a time when fixing boats becomes less attractive than trouble free sailing.
You are right, there is a gulf between arguably the majority and minorities, hence the objections to the universalism expressed by some in the form of condemnation of any view that does not accord with theirs. Just think of the minority the other way when looking at the growing trend for 50'+ floating sunbeds with loft interiors.
Hopefully there will always be a place for those who want to pursue their minority interests.
You are right, there is a gulf between arguably the majority and minorities, hence the objections to the universalism expressed by some in the form of condemnation of any view that does not accord with theirs. Just think of the minority the other way when looking at the growing trend for 50'+ floating sunbeds with loft interiors.
Hopefully there will always be a place for those who want to pursue their minority interests.
Brent Swain
N/A
Steel for that boat back then cost around $1500. Now steel for a 36 costs around $9K, less than a few years ago. I salvaged a lot from my previous boat ,a mainsail which originally cost me $100 , and a jib which originally cost me $125 bilge pump, which originally cost me $26, etc etc.. My current boat, built in 1984 ,after building ten origami boats for others, cost me $6K to get sailing and living aboard.
The assumption that quality in a boat is always ,unavoidably porportionate to money spent is a big mistake, costing far to may their cruising dreams ,or years of cruising freedom. Its an old, used car saleman's line.
Quality in a cruising boat is far more determined by the thought and planing which goes into her.
Most cruisers are aware of the practice of putting the ""Marine" label on gear ,then tripling the price tag.
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Brent Swain
N/A
Good points!
Any time anyone suggests trying things differently, he gets automatically attacked, by those who would hold back any new development or ideas. Van De Stadt developed the first metal boat thinking which was not imitation wooden boat building, and took full advanage of the nature of steel.Other designers ignored his progress, and stuck to 1950s steel boat building methods.
Harry Trueman said;
"An 'Expert 'is someone who opposes change, because when change is accepted, he stops being an expert!"
In around 1840, women giving birth in hospitals had 35 times the death rate of those giving birth in the country side. A doctor suggested that doctors should wash their hands after handling cadavers, before delivering babies . He was laughed at and ridiculed to his grave .
Responses to new ideas, in many fields today, often get the same response . sometimes
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Brent Swain
N/A
A few more thoughts.......
This should raise a wry smile from the many naysayers - couple days ago looking over every inch of the hull I put a centre punch through it ..... more than once as well..... :hororr:
To which most would reply ""told you so!" Anyway, knew there would be some dodgy areas, poor old girl is 35 years old and the inside of the hull has never been looked at as far as I know. And design flaws caused the problem, wood attached to the hull and a small section with no drainage.
So one result of this is knuckling down to a major league refit that's been on the cards for many years. Top to bottom, front to back. Fix all the design flaws. Weld every hole shut, every nut, bolt going through the hull and redo the interior so it's easy to get at the hull in another 10 years or so.
Which is relevant to the thread as it highlights a plus for steel for the long term cruiser, other than a few euros a day boatyard and a load of paint it won't cost much more if anything compared to the anchorage. Keep away from sundowners a bit will cover the boatyard.
Realistically might take a year though! No big deal, after years drifting around anchorages it's great having a purpose for a while again - really can't remember being this excited for many a year!
Maybe the slightly heated discussion on this particular topic arises for the huge gulf between the 2 sides - IMHO steel is only really worth considering if you're in it for the long haul, someone mentioned resale price which demonstrates the distance between the sides - EH? Sell the boat? Where would you live?
IMHO you'll only find a good steel boat from a long term cruiser, majority of fellow steel boat owners I know are into their 70's and have been out 20 - 30 years. If the topic of selling up to go and finish getting old somewhere does come up more often than not selling to someone who will sail the boat and look after her is as important as any slightly tardy concept of money, a cruising boat ain't a car to swap as the whim takes you, maybe more like a farm or something which grows with you.
So back to the OP, yes a steel boat will be cooler in the heat and warmer in the cold than plastic. And can be relatively low maintenance, look after you in awful conditions and be easy to sort when someone runs into you or you hit something.
The problem is the good boats in great nick with all the design flaws replaced will hardly ever come up for sale as they are drifting around the oceans of the world
Great post!
I met a couple in Mexico in 89 whom I had built a 31 footer for in 83. They said
" Given the time we have lived aboard ,and the travelling we have done in her, the boat is free. We are a lot of money ahead of where we would be, had we not built her ." They have since cruised the Caribbean extensively, and on to England, play time they could have never afford in any other way. The boat owes them nothing. Their boss, who followed his own advice, bought a plastic boat, which he was still paying for ,after they had done all the above cruising.
Most of my clients hold on to their boats for several decades turning down many people asking to buy them.
I have often suggested a hammer and centre punch for surveying any steel boat. If it doesnt dent it or go thru, you have plenty of metal thickness.Check low points, like the back bottom of the keel,etc.
Ultra sound equipment, which can tell you the thickness of steel from the outside of a hull, is under $100 these days. Takes the guesswork out. Every steel boat owner should have one.
Again, lots of epoxy inside during the building process ,eliminates many problems.
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Brent Swain
N/A
A rare occurence!
Brent Swain
N/A
There are a lot of rubbish stock plastic boats, in fact most of them.
A friend bought a Crealock 37 ,very solidly built. Years later ,she went to visit the shop ,where they were built, and was horrified at how much they had reduced the scantlings. When she asked them about safety, they said ,"That is not our concern ,our only concern is profit margins."
Many stock plastic boats have absolutely no back up plates under cleats, etc . Check yours, before heading out on a long cruise.
"Robust?"
Compared to the average back yard steel boat, no stock plastic boat comes anywhere near fitting that term.
Seems mass production plastic boats are a thing of the past, with a few rare exceptions like Beneteaus , Catalinas, Jeneaus etc , which are nowhere near the quality of older plastic boats, economics having forced them to reduce scantlings, and focus their spending on advertising and promotion( which sells a lot more boats than quality ever did.)
The reason there not more steel boat producers, are a combination of the "cruising full time as way of life" are a tiny market ( for which steel is far better) compared to the weekenders and 2 week vacation a year boats ( for which plastic is ideal) ,
and the use of "stuck in time, 1950's," steel boat building methods ( while they ridicule , and attack any advancements which would make steel economically viable).
95% of my boats have left or full time cruising with their original owners, largely due to the huge savings in time and money, which my methods have enabled. (Something most designers ignore completely. No wonder they are chronically out of work these days).
I have always advised "Get her liveable and sailing .You can embellish later."
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Brent Swain
N/A
If you have a look on some of the American forums this guy gets the same lack of respect for his thoughts on boat building as he is getting here. Saying things like he built a boat for $4500 just gives it away that he is an idiot in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
One thing all my critics on the yank forums have in common is zero hands on experience in steel boats.
Their "Guru"is a "designer "with almost zero offshore cruising, and zero steel boat building, owning, living aboard , or maintaining experience who charges $175 an hour for advice on things he has never done. He "Engineered" a bow sprit for a million dollar yacht, from a simple 50 lb reliable inexpensive , well proven one, to 75 LB exponentially more expensive and unreliable carbon fibre one . He not only makes no attempt whatever to keep costs and complexity down, but constantly strives to do the opposite.
He refuses to sell plans to back yard builders, believeing that anyone who cant afford to pay a shop should not be allowed to own a boat
He first ridicules all my suggestions, then ends up copying them.
He claimed to have had only 6 of his steel boats designs ever built ,including the Amazon( a Graham Shannon design ,not his)
I met one, a 37 footer ,which weighed 36,000 lbs ,according to her owner (mine is under 20,000 lbs, which he claims is too heavy.)
His side kick has lost his last boat in a small lake, by tying bow on to a concrete dock ,with no spring lines , to cleats with zero back up plates; such is his expertise, and that of most of my critics on those sites.
In deciding on any design, step one is to determine the hands on experience they have in building, using and cruising long term in the type of boat you are considering.
A friend built a Roberts Spray. Took him 3 years to do the steel work.
Then he built a Ganly ,Ganley being a Kiwi with lots of hands on steel boat building experience , The Ganley took 5 months and was a much better boat. Such is the difference hands on experience brings to a design.
One thing all my critics on the yank forums have in common is zero hands on experience in steel boats.
Their "Guru"is a "designer "with almost zero offshore cruising, and zero steel boat building, owning, living aboard , or maintaining experience who charges $175 an hour for advice on things he has never done. He "Engineered" a bow sprit for a million dollar yacht, from a simple 50 lb reliable inexpensive , well proven one, to 75 LB exponentially more expensive and unreliable carbon fibre one . He not only makes no attempt whatever to keep costs and complexity down, but constantly strives to do the opposite.
He refuses to sell plans to back yard builders, believeing that anyone who cant afford to pay a shop should not be allowed to own a boat
He first ridicules all my suggestions, then ends up copying them.
He claimed to have had only 6 of his steel boats designs ever built ,including the Amazon( a Graham Shannon design ,not his)
I met one, a 37 footer ,which weighed 36,000 lbs ,according to her owner (mine is under 20,000 lbs, which he claims is too heavy.)
His side kick has lost his last boat in a small lake, by tying bow on to a concrete dock ,with no spring lines , to cleats with zero back up plates; such is his expertise, and that of most of my critics on those sites.
In deciding on any design, step one is to determine the hands on experience they have in building, using and cruising long term in the type of boat you are considering.
A friend built a Roberts Spray. Took him 3 years to do the steel work.
Then he built a Ganly ,Ganley being a Kiwi with lots of hands on steel boat building experience , The Ganley took 5 months and was a much better boat. Such is the difference hands on experience brings to a design.
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Brent Swain
N/A
Another great commentary on "Yottieness."
(Quote)
I gave up on the boatdesign.net forums when I was attacked relentlessly by the normal henchmen for saying that it was a huge mistake to put teak decks on a cruising boat since they were heavy, hot to walk on, often leaky and very expensive. They totally lost it when I said it was like building a maintenance time bomb in a boat. Some of the attackers were "experts" who worked for boatyards and regularly replaced teak decks on boats, saying they were no problem at all. When I said if they were so good why did you have to keep working on them or replacing them at great expense, and why did I see so many boats with major deck and rot problems due to the teak, they only upped their attacks. Despite being "experts" their arguments were moronic and flawed but it didn't matter. There was no way they were going to back down and started shifting to personal attacks. It was all about money and keeping their gravy train going at real boat owners and cruisers expense. I suspect a lot of them didn't even own or live on a boat.
(Quote)
(Quote)
I gave up on the boatdesign.net forums when I was attacked relentlessly by the normal henchmen for saying that it was a huge mistake to put teak decks on a cruising boat since they were heavy, hot to walk on, often leaky and very expensive. They totally lost it when I said it was like building a maintenance time bomb in a boat. Some of the attackers were "experts" who worked for boatyards and regularly replaced teak decks on boats, saying they were no problem at all. When I said if they were so good why did you have to keep working on them or replacing them at great expense, and why did I see so many boats with major deck and rot problems due to the teak, they only upped their attacks. Despite being "experts" their arguments were moronic and flawed but it didn't matter. There was no way they were going to back down and started shifting to personal attacks. It was all about money and keeping their gravy train going at real boat owners and cruisers expense. I suspect a lot of them didn't even own or live on a boat.
(Quote)
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I am afraid again you are talking absolute rubbish.
You seem totally out of touch with modern mass production GRP boat building. Perhaps it is a consequence of living in a relatively remote part of the world and nit being exposed to developments elsewhere. This seems to lead to you relying (as has been pointed out several times) on anecdote and (uninformed) opinion rather than fact.
GHA
Well-Known Member
He's certainly prolific on the keyboard..
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
I've never heard somebody called a Beneteau or Jeanneau 'rare' before.
I guess they don't have an equivalent of the RCD over in his neck of the woods.
I guess they don't have an equivalent of the RCD over in his neck of the woods.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Brent Swain-I have a KIWI built steel boat, a Hartley 32 with a flush coachroof and heavy ply doghouse.
Well built from corten steel, it is in good condition despite being badly treated for the last five years. I know and understand welding, and the guy who welded this one knew his stuff.
However, like most boats, there are shortcomings and compromises.
The ports and windows should have been mounted externaly, not inside the hull leaving a step that seawater and rainwater get trapped in causing corrosion. Not yet structural, but very unsightly. I shall try to attend to this fault while there soon.
The cleats on this one are not reinforced, but will be!
The water tank has no separate breather so must be filled REALLY slowly to avoid blowback.
Because of the compatative scarcity of European production boats in the Southern Hemisphere, you probably do not have much direct experience of them.
If, as you suggest, they are not fit for purpose, owners would be kicking up 24/7/365.
As they are not, we must accept they are fit for purpose.
I agree that what one might wish for in a world girdling liveaboard cruiser cannot easily be found in a modest price production boat, to say they are unsuitable and badly designed and made is patently not true.
I also have a high end motorsailer, well made, few shortcomings in design or build, but with the inevitable compromises.
The designer decided that if all the boats he designed and sold could navigate the Intracoastal Waterway in the USA, he would sell to customers who did not perhaps want to go into the oceans, but cruise on the almost 3,000 miles of sheltered waters available. The boats had to fit beneath the bridges that did not lift, and have a shallow draught so as to stay afloat at low tide.
Because of these requirements they have a small rig and a shallow long keel. They make loads of leeway, are not close winded and in light winds sail poorly. But-they are very seaworthy, good alongside or on the hook and wear really well.
Horses for courses.
Jay Leno is a great Motorcycle collector and has a world class collection.
When asked what is his favourite motorbike his reply is "The one I'm riding when asked that question "
Perhaps boat owners think the same............................
Well built from corten steel, it is in good condition despite being badly treated for the last five years. I know and understand welding, and the guy who welded this one knew his stuff.
However, like most boats, there are shortcomings and compromises.
The ports and windows should have been mounted externaly, not inside the hull leaving a step that seawater and rainwater get trapped in causing corrosion. Not yet structural, but very unsightly. I shall try to attend to this fault while there soon.
The cleats on this one are not reinforced, but will be!
The water tank has no separate breather so must be filled REALLY slowly to avoid blowback.
Because of the compatative scarcity of European production boats in the Southern Hemisphere, you probably do not have much direct experience of them.
If, as you suggest, they are not fit for purpose, owners would be kicking up 24/7/365.
As they are not, we must accept they are fit for purpose.
I agree that what one might wish for in a world girdling liveaboard cruiser cannot easily be found in a modest price production boat, to say they are unsuitable and badly designed and made is patently not true.
I also have a high end motorsailer, well made, few shortcomings in design or build, but with the inevitable compromises.
The designer decided that if all the boats he designed and sold could navigate the Intracoastal Waterway in the USA, he would sell to customers who did not perhaps want to go into the oceans, but cruise on the almost 3,000 miles of sheltered waters available. The boats had to fit beneath the bridges that did not lift, and have a shallow draught so as to stay afloat at low tide.
Because of these requirements they have a small rig and a shallow long keel. They make loads of leeway, are not close winded and in light winds sail poorly. But-they are very seaworthy, good alongside or on the hook and wear really well.
Horses for courses.
Jay Leno is a great Motorcycle collector and has a world class collection.
When asked what is his favourite motorbike his reply is "The one I'm riding when asked that question "
Perhaps boat owners think the same............................
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
Horses for courses indeed.
Saying that everyone should have a steel boat is a bit like saying everyone should drive a 4x4. For most people it makes far more sense to own something a bit more everyday.
Saying that everyone should have a steel boat is a bit like saying everyone should drive a 4x4. For most people it makes far more sense to own something a bit more everyday.
GHA
Well-Known Member
This is what you get with a bit of lazy design erring on the side of pretty rather than tough & long lasting. wood attached to steel with machine screws. After 30 odd years anyway..
Gonna be a long refit but there'll be nothing bolted or screwed to the deck afterwards, welds only, that bit should only a take a few days and cost little to chop out and weld a new bit in. The million holes where the used to be a teak deck screwed on won't cost much to sort but might take a little longer.. eejets!
But then it will be a tough as old boots dusty dry bilge ocean boat again.
Gonna be a long refit but there'll be nothing bolted or screwed to the deck afterwards, welds only, that bit should only a take a few days and cost little to chop out and weld a new bit in. The million holes where the used to be a teak deck screwed on won't cost much to sort but might take a little longer.. eejets!
But then it will be a tough as old boots dusty dry bilge ocean boat again.
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