Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[Robin]

I always think it a dangerous strategy to slag off other peoples choices in hull construction. They choose what they want for their reasons be it right or wrong. By all means tell people you like steel hulls but dont start telling us what is wrong with grp. My 38 year old grp hull is in excellent condition like most 38 year old grp hulls. Very few 38 year old steel hulls are anywhere near as good as the day they were built without a huge maintenance programme. I wont slag off stell boats but they are not for me

me neither having seen close-up two that corroded through from inside to outside, AFIK osmosis never actually sank a boat but the two steel boats I saw were very close to sinking, mighty nice as they were otherwise. Besides which I am no welder, panel beater or painter.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Sailing from BC to Tonga , my light beige decks got hot crossing the doldrums and equator . Next time I painted them white. Like adding air conditioning.
North of Cabo my hull stays dark green . Much drier in the lockers, which get musty if the hull is white. In ice at minus 12 c the hull feels warm to the touch, when in the sun. South of Cabo , I paint it white, hull, decks, everything. It's like adding air conditioning.
I recently met a cruiser who had 2 previous steel boats, and was now sailing in plastic . He said that , after owning two steel boats, he now feels like he is sailing in a fragile eggshell .
A week ago , I met a guy who, while sailing off Mexico, hit a whale. The boat sank quickly , leaving him in a dinghy in open ocean. Luckily, he had a VHF, and only rowed for a couple of hours. Luckily it was calm, or he would have sunk quickly. He agreed, when we said he should have been in a steel boat. That would have suffered no damage from hitting a whale.
Huge increase in peace of mind, sleeping in a steel boat, doing hull speed on a dark, moonless night .Not the case, sailing in plastic.
I have not found maintenance on my 33 year old steel boat to be much of a problem. It was heavily epoxied on clean steel , inside and out, initially .
Most 35 ft steel boats make roughly the same passage times as most moderate displacement plastic ones.

I’m not sure how much credibility to give to someone agreeing with you when you suggested he should have been in a steel boat. What was his qualifications for this assessment? I’ve known people of different cultures agree with something they know to be complete baloney because they think they are “being polite” or “saving face”.

I’ve also sailed a steel boat, epoxied from new, that was a complete PITA to maintain.

My plastic Sealord is so over built in GRP I’d have few qualms about hitting something.

 

[Brent Swain]

I always think it a dangerous strategy to slag off other peoples choices in hull construction. They choose what they want for their reasons be it right or wrong. By all means tell people you like steel hulls but dont start telling us what is wrong with grp. My 38 year old grp hull is in excellent condition like most 38 year old grp hulls. Very few 38 year old steel hulls are anywhere near as good as the day they were built without a huge maintenance programme. I wont slag off stell boats but they are not for me

All materials have their pros and cons , depending on how they are used. For a boat which spends most of it's life in a marina, neglected , only occasionally leaving , plastic is far superior to steel.
For a full time cruiser in rugged, full time use ,often off the beaten path, the reverse is true.
People have the right to be given both the pros and cons, and to be made aware of what neglect and mistakes lead to problems in both materials, rather than blaming the material itself.
People have the right to see the myths and lies about steel boats, from those who have never owned one, challenged with facts and experience, when making their choices.
My 33 year old steel boat is almost as good as the day I built her, with minimal maintenance . Given what I have hit at sea ,she wouldn't be here, nor would I, had she been plastic.
Probably not a problem, if I had kept her in a marina 11 months a year, as most stock plastic boats are.

 

[Brent Swain]

I’m not sure how much credibility to give to someone agreeing with you when you suggested he should have been in a steel boat. What was his qualifications for this assessment? I’ve known people of different cultures agree with something they know to be complete baloney because they think they are “being polite” or “saving face”.

I’ve also sailed a steel boat, epoxied from new, that was a complete PITA to maintain.

My plastic Sealord is so over built in GRP I’d have few qualms about hitting something.

His qualifications were having had his plastic boat sink under him, in conditions which would have caused no damage to a steel boat.
What are yours, of a similar stature,and experience?
Yes ,a poorly built and painted steel boat can be a PITA to maintain.
That is the fault of the paint job, and detail design ,not the material. One can make that a problem on any boat building material.
Properly done, maintenance on a steel boat can be minimal. Mine is.

 

[Brent Swain]

me neither having seen close-up two that corroded through from inside to outside, AFIK osmosis never actually sank a boat but the two steel boats I saw were very close to sinking, mighty nice as they were otherwise. Besides which I am no welder, panel beater or painter.

Yes, because too many have almost zero epoxy inside, the most important paint you can put on a steel boat, yet the most often neglected.
If a plastic boat made entirely with a chopper gun breaks up , is that the fault of fibreglass as a building material?
Or a wooden boat made with water soluable glue and bare steel fastenings?
Similar arguments!

 

[geem]

Yes, because too many have almost zero epoxy inside, the most important paint you can put on a steel boat, yet the most often neglected.
If a plastic boat made entirely with a chopper gun breaks up , is that the fault of fibreglass as a building material?
Or a wooden boat made with water soluable glue and bare steel fastenings?
Similar arguments!

 

[geem]

Tell me about the grp boat that broke up? I would be interested to know what it was and under what conditions it broke up.

 

[john_morris_uk]

His qualifications were having had his plastic boat sink under him, in conditions which would have caused no damage to a steel boat.
What are yours, of a similar stature,and experience?
Yes ,a poorly built and painted steel boat can be a PITA to maintain.
That is the fault of the paint job, and detail design ,not the material. One can make that a problem on any boat building material.
Properly done, maintenance on a steel boat can be minimal. Mine is.

I’m very pleased to hear that your steel boat is in your opinion ‘properly maintained’.

Claiming authority from anecdotal evidence is fallacious. Anecdotal evidence is interesting but not authoritative. FWIW may I suggest you might have written, “His qualification was having his plastic boat sink from under him in conditions where in my opinion a steel boat was more likely to survive.”

Steel boats have pros and cons. All yacht design is a compromise and like many people I doubt the credibility of others who promote one particular design or technique or material with one dimensional zeal. Most naval architects acknowledge that the pay off between weight and performance is compromised too much on smaller sized steel boats. Over 40’ or so steel becomes a viable material.

And yes, I’ve sailed steel boats and I’ve sailed across oceans and survived storms and a hurricane (but ‘only’ a Cat 2.) so no more anecdotal stories claiming to trump all other experiences please. Your experiences are interesting and valuable, but a sense of balance and proportion in ones argument goes a long way.

 

[Kelpie]

I would have a metal boat if it was either new, or had an impeccable maintenance record, which is likely to mean that it is not very old.
As I can afford neither of these options, I will take my life in my hands and continue to sail my 47yr old GRP boat.

 

[Robin]

Tell me about the grp boat that broke up? I would be interested to know what it was and under what conditions it broke up.

It broke up as an example pour encourage les autres. Titanic meanwhile, whilst being widely proclaimed unsinkable sank to make an entirely different point.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I have a tube of gel coat filler in my shed:

https://i.imgur.com/3gAPvPm.jpg

View attachment 66879

That's part of one of my shed /workshops.

I don't use gel filler but do use epoxy filler finished with polyurethane 2 pack paint.

 

[Brent Swain]

I would have a metal boat if it was either new, or had an impeccable maintenance record, which is likely to mean that it is not very old.
As I can afford neither of these options, I will take my life in my hands and continue to sail my 47yr old GRP boat.

That is why it is surprising to see so many turn down a half finished metal boat projects, with all new metal, but buy an older boat with older material. The partly finished one , given all the steel is new, can be an excellent buy, with a very negotiable price tag.
Many of my clients have cruised in plastic boats, and have their heart set on the peace of mind which comes with steel. Often, building their own is the best way to get exactly what they want , custom built to their own specs and needs, with all new steel. No question of what is behind where, what the builder had in mind, or how well it is welded and epoxied behind the foam and paneling.
If you HATE building things , don't build a boat.
If you thoroughly ENJOY building things , build a boat.
Some have thoroughly enjoyed the building process as well, and some have gone on to metal working careers ,as a result.

 

[Brent Swain]

Tell me about the grp boat that broke up? I would be interested to know what it was and under what conditions it broke up.

Calm conditions ,calm enough for him to row for a couple hours in his dinghy, before being picked up. He said that ,had it been rough, he would have been a goner.
It was a Maple Leaf.
Hit a whale and it sunk very quickly. No time to do an on the spot ,extensive survey.
When theory tells you one thing, and experience tells you another, seamanship is going with experience.
Those who discount experience as "'Anecdote", usually do so because they don't have the benefit of much experience, and thus, usually advocate theory over experience.
On my first arrival in the Marquesas , I met a steel Aussie boat just finishing a circumnavigation. Since Galapagos, they had hit a lot of whales in the night, each a non event for them ,which they didn't consider worth getting out of bed for .Definitely wouldn't be the case in a non metal boat.

 

[john_morris_uk]

That is why it is surprising to see so many turn down a half finished metal boat projects, with all new metal, but buy an older boat with older material. The partly finished one , given all the steel is new, can be an excellent buy, with a very negotiable price tag.
Many of my clients have cruised in plastic boats, and have their heart set on the peace of mind which comes with steel. Often, building their own is the best way to get exactly what they want , custom built to their own specs and needs, with all new steel. No question of what is behind where, what the builder had in mind, or how well it is welded and epoxied behind the foam and paneling.
If you HATE building things , don't build a boat.
If you thoroughly ENJOY building things , build a boat.
Some have thoroughly enjoyed the building process as well, and some have gone on to metal working careers ,as a result.

Your post is getting very close to advertising which is forbidden on these forums...

Calm conditions ,calm enough for him to row for a couple hours in his dinghy, before being picked up. He said that ,had it been rough, he would have been a goner.
It was a Maple Leaf.
Hit a whale and it sunk very quickly. No time to do an on the spot ,extensive survey.
When theory tells you one thing, and experience tells you another, seamanship is going with experience.
Those who discount experience as "'Anecdote", usually do so because they don't have the benefit of much experience, and thus, usually advocate theory over experience.
On my first arrival in the Marquesas , I met a steel Aussie boat just finishing a circumnavigation. Since Galapagos, they had hit a lot of whales in the night, each a non event for them ,which they didn't consider worth getting out of bed for .Definitely wouldn't be the case in a non metal boat.

If you are having a go at me, may I point out that you appear to have no idea about my experience and how many k's of mile sI have sailed and in what boats. Lets just leave it that I have cruised and sailed in nearly all the oceans and many of the seas of the world.

I count my experience as often hard won and extremely valuable. Other people's anecdotes and any conclusions drawn from them have to be weighed up for what they are. In my professional life, I deal with people who are emotionally involved in events that are often beyond their control. Their reactions are frequently irrational. Is that a bit like when someone loses their boat from under them and someone asks them a leading question?

I have little patience with people who are one dimensional over boat design and construction. They have lost the ability to de-centre and see the whole picture and weigh up evidence and experience appropriately.

 

[prv]

Many of my clients have cruised in plastic boats, and have their heart set on the peace of mind which comes with steel

Well of course they have. If they didn't have their heart set on a steel boat, they wouldn't be coming to see a steel boatbuilder, would they? Talk about confirmation bias!

Pete

 

[capnsensible]

On my first arrival in the Marquesas .

On my first arrival in the Marquesas, we were very interested in Aluminium. Because that's what Heineken beer comes in, we could possibly have made a boat with the empties.

I wasn't too worried about doing that though, because we never hit anything.

Just sayin.

 

[Brent Swain]

Your post is getting very close to advertising which is forbidden on these forums...



If you are having a go at me, may I point out that you appear to have no idea about my experience and how many k's of mile sI have sailed and in what boats. Lets just leave it that I have cruised and sailed in nearly all the oceans and many of the seas of the world.

I count my experience as often hard won and extremely valuable. Other people's anecdotes and any conclusions drawn from them have to be weighed up for what they are. In my professional life, I deal with people who are emotionally involved in events that are often beyond their control. Their reactions are frequently irrational. Is that a bit like when someone loses their boat from under them and someone asks them a leading question?

I have little patience with people who are one dimensional over boat design and construction. They have lost the ability to de-centre and see the whole picture and weigh up evidence and experience appropriately.

I have no intention of "having a go at you," so relax. If you consider posting the facts as "having a go at you ",then that is your problem.
I am just trying to pass on what I have learned and experienced in over 40 years of building over 3 dozen steel boats ,and cruised, mostly full time, in mine, including many Pacific crossings.
Don't expect my postings, conclusions and experience in a steel boat ,to match, in perfect sync, yours in plastic.
Suggesting that only the cons of steel boats should be allowed ,and only the pros of plastic should be allowed ,looks like an attempt to dangerously mislead the sheeple to plastic, as their only option.
That sounds more like "advertising plastic", as the only option.
Being retired, with full pension ,more than I know how to spend, I have no need to advertise.
Anyone can search origamiboats to find me.
No, there is nothing irrational about realizing that a steel hull would have had no problem in the situation described. In that situation , staying a float , with no damage," IS" the whole picture ,period! Anything less is "irrational!"
When cruising at hull speed on a dark night , the knowledge that you can survive almost any collisions, with minimal damage, IS a major part of the whole picture.
Speed? Most small steel cruising boats, fully loaded for long term cruising, make roughly the same passage times as boats of any other material , certainly close enough to make taking greater risks for a slighter increase in speed, not worth it.
Without having experienced the huge gain in peace of mind that a steel hull gives you, its hard to imagine cruising with such peace of mind. Having cruised for decades with such peace of mind, its hard to imagine giving it up. For what?
The greatest critics of steel boats are usually those with the least experience cruising long term in one. Ditto critics of my boats, all whom have zero experience in cruising in one.

 

[Brent Swain]

Aluminium is a great material; for a finished boat. Too bad it is so expensive. When the material for a 36 in steel was $6 K, aluminium was $20K. The gap is still as big.
Then, you have the added cost of welding ,and the need for a dry, windless
( expensive) facility to weld it reliably, and the ease with which you can screw up an aluminium weld ( steel is extremely forgiving) ,and the fact that an aluminium weld is only 60% strength, as opposed to the 100% strength of a steel weld. Then there is the problem of getting an antifouling which wont eat it with electrolysis, and still be effective.
Steel is much better for the home builder.

 

[Tranona]

Calm conditions ,calm enough for him to row for a couple hours in his dinghy, before being picked up. He said that ,had it been rough, he would have been a goner.
It was a Maple Leaf.
Hit a whale and it sunk very quickly. No time to do an on the spot ,extensive survey.
When theory tells you one thing, and experience tells you another, seamanship is going with experience.
Those who discount experience as "'Anecdote", usually do so because they don't have the benefit of much experience, and thus, usually advocate theory over experience.
On my first arrival in the Marquesas , I met a steel Aussie boat just finishing a circumnavigation. Since Galapagos, they had hit a lot of whales in the night, each a non event for them ,which they didn't consider worth getting out of bed for .Definitely wouldn't be the case in a non metal boat.

I have no idea what a Maple Leaf is like or how it is built, but you seem woefully ill informed about how GRP boats are designed and built - at least this side of the Atlantic. Nobody uses chopper guns to lay up hulls. GRP hulls are immensely strong composites and often incorporate aramids such as Kevlar in the layup.

I suggest for a start you order the series of articles published about 10 years ago in Yachting Monthly which records a series of experiments aimed at identifying what causes yachts to sink. A real boat (1980s Jeanneau about 38'). Once you have read it you will realise how difficult it is to actually sink a modern GRP boat, particularly noting the difficulty the testers found trying to smash the hull with sledgehammers.

Then consider the chances of hitting something at sea, which is vanishingly small, which despite your handful of anecdotal reports means that an individual sailor has an almost zero chance of sinking. This of course varies according to where you are sailing and the chances of breaching the hull is arguably more likely in areas where there are lots of rocks, coral reefs etc in shallow water. So one can understand why some may be at a higher level of risk than others.

However, the reality is still that only a very tiny minority consider it worth living with the negatives of steel construction to gain whatever marginal benefit they may gain if they are unfortunate to hit something. You wrote elsewhere about the benefits of building your own boat and that steel is good for this - but it has also been the cause of many failed dreams and yards littered with rotting, badly built boats. On this side of the Atlantic there has been virtually no self build activity for the last 10 years. There are many reasons for this, probably chief among them high cost, long time scales, legislation, poor market for such boats and a huge stock of perfectly adequate GRP boats, both new and used available at modest prices for the would be ocean voyager.

So while it is interesting to hear what is going on in your part of the world from your perspective, it has little relevance to the European, particularly UK boating scene. As you have seen from some of the posts here, there is a tendency to look for hard evidence when somebody takes a position and makes claims that do not accord with our own experience. Hopefully by engaging with these discussions you learn a thing or two about how things are done here and why your claims might be challenged.

 

[john_morris_uk]

You are claiming ‘facts’ when in reality what you are really offering is opinions.

I’m sure you really really believe what you say to be true, and whilst some of your opinions are ones I would agree with (steel boats are strong and LESS LIKELY to sink when hitting, for example, a semi submerged container) you jump to conclusions about how this gives some amazing peace of mind etc without real cause. Your argument is disconnected and yet again you fail to acknowledge the well know disadvantages of steel construction. You make big play upon this mythical ‘unsinkability’ of steel boats and persistently fail to address or just dismiss as the real problems steel boat owners face.

You say that I (and others) haven’t experienced the wonderful peace of mind that sailing a steel boat brings but also conveniently ignore the fact that I’ve also sailed steel boats so I also have some experience of them. . (Two examples from different eras were professionally built and plasma sprayed with zinc and then epoxied inside and out on build. It still rusted and we never did get on top of the corrosion problems in either of them..)

I have a real issue with anyone who is so single minded that they can’t see any problems of their hull design and material of construction. ALL yacht design is a compromise. Steel construction compromises corrosion and speed amongst others.