Statement From Legend Yachts

[Bergman]

Don't disagree with what you say Bill, but it does leave the problem of how one decides whether a boat is right for you or not.

Sure a beam sea of whatever height (1.5 x beam I think) will roll a boat irrespective of Stab Curve. There will then be the question of whether it stays inverted and for how long.

If the stability curve is ignored as useless then what facts does one take note of. Do you go by displacement - buy heaviest you can afford, or opt out of arguement and the one with nicest interior.

Asking advice seems a lost cause, everyone will advise either a boat way beyond means of most people or alternatively one like theirs.

Very difficult, particularly for someone with limited experience. I can well understand the logic that says there are hundreds of Ben-etc. sailing around, very few of them sink so must be ok.

Glad I don't have to build boats for a living

 

[Guest]

Agreed, and recovering from an inversion is one thing (which most of us hope we won't have to do). Another thing is knowing whether there is a decent righting force in the event of a knockdown to about 110 degrees.

Of course that's no guarantee of whether you will capsize or not and wave action windage etc. etc. are also important, and it is well known that a breaking wave will capsize pretty much anything etc. etc. But information like displacement, hull form, stability curve etc. are all important even if individually or even collectively they don't guarantee whether you will be capsized in the next 10 years or so. There is no point in saying "I may be rolled/hit a reef/sink anyway, so it doesn't matter what boat I put to sea in".

Different boats do behave in fundamentally different ways, and the more basic information (and of course experience) one can get hold of the better.

 

[Guest]

I accept completely the postings that replied to my own. Every ship's captain (and skippers of yachts come into this category) wants to have confidence in his ship.

Frankly the way to obtain this is EXPERIENCE. To develop a feel for a good ship. Sorry, I do not wish to seem patronising, but that was what was involved in the old system of sea apprenticeship. One learned with time.

I did not aspire to own my own boat for years. My first sailing experiences were as crew to some of the best sailors I could find. John Illingworth, Errol Bruce, Hoagy Carmichael and Richard Clay. I had been sailing for 12 years before I aspired to my first cruising boat. And my second was a floating disaster that I still cringe about. You do not become a surgeon by going on a one day course.

If you are going to trust the lives of your wives and children to a boat, then you have a duty to make an informed judgement. Try it out on a rough day. And frankly you will learn more from the informed opinions of Yottimag testing crews, who on the whole do know what they are talking about (it grieves me to say so). It is what is written, what are their impressions, their FEEL. That is better than any amount of pseudo-scientific bollocks. It is also better than sales brochures and fancy pictures of girls in bikinis leaning on ropes that go nowhere.

I am glad that testers are beginning to do more than comment on the design of the ashtrays.

William Cooper

 

[ParaHandy]

The opening preamble to the ISO US conference was "A coalition from the UK, Netherlands and Norway cited disturbing data indicating that vessels too prone to capsize in heavy weather were getting category A approval." If you care to read the previous posts, there is considerable confusion over exactly what Category applies to this boat and their obduracy merely compounds that.

You may think it's bureaucratic twaddle but an SV seems a perfectly rational measure which applies engineering standards to the design of a yacht.

 

[webcraft]

Pseudo-scientific bollocks, Bill?

So a GZ curve is pseudo scientific bollocks . . . well thanks for that gem, Bill.

Seems to have fooled a lot of people for a long time - it's hardly something new, ask some of the 'old salts' you have sailed with. It has been accepted by the (non-scientific, non-bollocks speaking) sailing fraternity as a useful indicator for a very long time, and I don't understand why you are so keen to scrap it. Do you work for Legend?

It's a good guide to how a boat will behave in extreme conditions, and maybe in not so extreme conditions; that's why YM (almost) always publish them, and why they appear to be happy to let Legend take so much stick in this forum - not noticed any staff springing to their defence so far.

There's been a lot of nonsense spoken about good sailors being able to sail anything, about stability calculations being meaningless because you might stow the beer on deck instead of in the bilges and similar garbage. What this discussion should be progressing to focus on is whether or not we can place any great faith in a Category A (Ocean) rating any more, or whether there is just too much money at stake for us to trust the system.

 

[andrewhopkins]

Do the right thing.

Get the magazine to post your stability curve in next months issue and say something like "A large number of readers requested this information....et cetera, et cetera".

I dont doubt you thought you were doing the right thing but in this world of spin and conspiracy, silence is not golden.

 

[david_e]

A punters perspective

Find the whole thing confusing and hard to follow, but what does it mean in practice? the ABCD type rating sounds good as long as it is reliable;

Scenario 1; in the marina
(to SWMBO) Fancy a sail today dearest?
- (SWMBO) but it says 35knots on that wind thingy and it looks very rough.
- ah but I have just read that this boat has a vanishing stability of **** so it must be OK. - Ouch, what was that for?
- (SWMBO) don't take the p**s out of me, you know we don't go out when it's like this.

Scenario 2; caught out in very grim conditions;
- (SWMBO) is that liferaft ready yet? (polite version)
- no worries dear, we are only at 110 degrees and I know its a bit wet but according to the info from the builder we have another 10 degrees to go before it gets dangerous.
- (SWMBO) give me that radio
- but darling what about the STIX - Ouch. dearest where are you?
- (SWMBO) hello RNLI................our liferaft is.......

 

[Eudorajab]

Re: A punters perspective

LOL

Looks like my First Mates been moonlighting !!

Thank god for boys weekends oh and can you imagine a crew on a blowy day reeling off that kind of info? Sounds like a candidate for the drink to me.

 

[Eudorajab]

Re: Pseudo-scientific bollocks, Bill?

My oh my ... such righteous indignation. I suppose we should all bow to your superior knowledge and follow your guidance implicitily.

This is a forum for exchanging views and ideas. You obvioulsly have yours as do others. Thats what makes the world such a diverse and intersting place. I for one beleive that you should live and let live. Sailing is a very subjective experience some rely on maths others on experience. I wonder what the ancient mariners would have made of all this hoo ha. Would ol Christopehr or Magellan or the Polynesians or even the Vikings for that matter even have set foot in their boats if they had seen the ol AVS etc. Hence a good sailor CAN sail almost anything and this has been proved time and time again on TRANSAT voyages in some rather less than stable craft.

But that alas is my own humble opinion and no amount of theorys gonna change it.

 

[nightjar]

Re: Inside Leg Measurement

Should anyone consider buying/ chartering the Legend 356 they will need an inside leg measurement of at least 38 ins. New demo 356 moored at C&N Gosport last weekend; would be impossible for the average person to climb aboard from the pontoon such is the freeboard. Intrestingly no comment in the YM test on this "slight" drawback.

Just happened to be a set of wooden steps placed on the pontoon ......no connection I'm sure with the 356 freeboard!

 

[brian_neale]

Re: Pseudo-scientific bollocks, Bill?

Have you ever tried looking at a book dealing with wooden boat design on the problems of specifying timber, dimensions, and so on? I remember once reading that theoretical analysis always gave results way over the dimensions that had proved adequate in practice. So, the theoretical stuff did not work too well. But no-one suggests that we ignore theory, or do not use it to compare two different materials, boats, or whatever. Magazine reviews often talk of material used, laminate thickness, etc. In absolute terms these are pretty meaningless, but give points of comparison and a feel for the product in question.

Not that any of this is appropriate any more. Based on Legend's arguments, we need know nothing about their boats except dimensions. We need those to know how many people and how much gear we can put in, and what the colour of the curtains is. We do not need to know such things as displacement or ballast ratio, as Legend know much better than any of us what makes a good boat, and we can trust their judgement.

And the fact that their boats bend when you walk on them is not relevant.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Pseudo-scientific bollocks, Bill?

They don't bend. That's a carefully modulated flex-factor which is directly related to the weight of the flex-inducor. Its purpose is to lower the centre of gravity of the boater, thus increasing the stabilty of the vessel.

Such flex is usually induced by the foot, and so is known as the Leg End (geddit) Stability Enhancer, but can also be occasioned by the buttocks, in which case it is called the Arsend Bender.

 

[Eudorajab]

Re: Pseudo-scientific bollocks, Bill?

I think you will find that most models on their site give just the details you are looking for. Try it sometime before you take the plunge into the unknown.

 

[paulineb]

Arsend Bender ?

Isn't he the manager of Arsenal ?

Pxx

 

[ParaHandy]

Re: Inside Leg Measurement

Followed her out of Gosport on Sunday morning. She motored to the SW end of Swash channel where she did her stuff. Lost sight of her about 1200hrs (playing with contessa to Nab Tower). At 1100 sea state good, vis crap, drizzle, wind SW F3-4 then 5-6-7 & ruff from 1300 all over the place thereafter). Earlier, like you, had thought of climbing aboard but thort better of it as oilies gussets not that strong.

AFAIK she got back 1300, according to local gossip, in one piece.

Reuters news flash ends...........

 

[Guest]

Re: Pseudo-scientific bollocks, Bill?

I like that bender.

Thank God the world has different opinions, otherwise we'd all buy the same boat.

I did say that Legend (whoever they are, I don't think I've ever seen one of their boats beneteau, janneau, Gibsea - they all look alike to me) OUGHT to have given YM the stability figures if the magazine wanted them. If the editor of YM thinks that is what she bases her craft tests and opinions on, then she should not review a boat unless they cough the gen up.

But as I said, I do not think figures of this nature are the most vital thing. One can get too mesmerised by the Emperor's Ju-ju.

William Cooper