Starter boat for family cruising

[ianat182]

+1 for the Westerly Tiger. All as described by Joha previously and a soundly built yacht - I have one.
There is one for sale on the Hamble here, visually better condition than my own, that has been up for sale for a year and no doubt would be a good one to make an offer for. I think it may have the older Volvo engine 10hp, but a reliable workhorse, and spares may be in short supply.
Being a fin keeled yacht it points well, and is a wolf in sheep's clothing when racing against larger yachts; manoeuvering ahead and astern is positive and OK in confined marinas.
They are built solidly throughout and have few if any production faults and will look after you in heavy weather . The previous owner of mine had sailed her to Scandinavia and was caught out in F9's back to the UK.
Loads of stowage that allows all berths to be used if fenders are stowed above at night.
You should get a steady 5.5knots in light breezes and often 6+ . A furling jib is good but the large genoa I find was too much for a windward beat in a breeze. Slab reefing on mine, but they did have roller reefing fitted originally.

The Westerly Owners Association is a good source for detailed info.

As with all boats of this age look for any sagging of the headlining in the main cabin which may have to be renewed or modified with other material. Do get a survey though; minor osmosis is not that significant but it will be mentioned if it is.
Expect to pay around £6500 to £8000 depending on kit and instrumentation and whether the newer engine has been fitted and maintained. PM me if you need further info.
Layout below is virtually the same as one of the Centaur layout options. The Centaur usually had a larger engine fitted originally around 18-23hp, quite unnecessary really for the same speed of the Tiger.

ianat182

 

[claymore]

Centaurs sail great if you tweak the sails properly.

I agree - I think I was trying to say that there are more exciting (sailiing) boats around for the money and length
In terms of value for money, space and seaworthiness they are a great boat with not many bad habits. Unlike some of the people sailiing them but then, that applies even to Claymores!!

 

[Robert Wilson]

Just going to say a word in favour of swing moorings vs. pontoon berths.
In addition to being cheaper, a swing mooring has many practical benefits. A boat may keep drier and happier being head to wind on a mooring. No fenders and warps to worry about and sort out every time. Jobs that involve raising sails etc can usually be done quite easily on a mooring. Also, you can often sail on and off it which is usually impossible with a marina berth. This can be important if your boat handles poorly under power, or has a temperamental engine.
The downsides are fairly obvious and up to the OP to decide what his priorities are.

From my own experience, I have a boat which the rain gets into if it's blowing from astern, and is a pig to handle under power. We did once keep her on a pontoon for the winter and actually sailed less often than we did when kept on a mooring. One of the factors causing that was that in certain wind conditions it was simply beyond us to safely manoeuvre in and out of the berth, so she stayed put rather than risk hitting another boat.

+1
But safe and easy access is a very notable requirement.

 

[dylanwinter]

price

if cash flow is important just beware of lumbering yourself with a liability of an inboard

I loved my inboard while it was going well

but I felt utterly helpless and vulnerable when it started to fall apart on me

you can walk into a bill that will make the money for a marina pontoon seem like small change

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334868

so be careful - there are blokes out there who are very pleased to see the back of the engines and pass them onto a newby

Dylan

 

[chrishelen]

if cash flow is important just beware of lumbering yourself with a liability of an inboard

I loved my inboard while it was going well

but I felt utterly helpless and vulnerable when it started to fall apart on me

you can walk into a bill that will make the money for a marina pontoon seem like small change

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334868

so be careful - there are blokes out there who are very pleased to see the back of the engines and pass them onto a newby

Dylan

good advice.

I looked at one or two Tigers before buying my present boat, i liked them a lot and was in the process of buying a very nice one, but it fell through at the last moment.

If you do go for a centaur, factor in the cost of re engine if they still have the old Volvo md2, whilst these are great engines and lots are still going strong there are a few duff ones out there, and spares cost ££££££££££s.

I rebuilt one for a mate a while back and it just got into silly money.

 

[stevebrassett]

Another vote for a swinging mooring, especially if you can find a sheltered one. Much quieter - you don't get other people's halyards banging away. Much easier to pick up, especially when single-handed. You don't need to get lines and fenders deployed as you approach your mooring. I appreciate that manouvering in a marina probably gets easier quite quickly, but it is very intimidating when you start, as you blunder around near all of the expensive boats. Yes, they have their downsides, as you need to use a tender, and there will always be that moment when you remember you left something in the car, or on board when you reach the other end.

I am on a sheltered mooring up a creek, and it is delightful staying on board as the boat swings gently to the wind and the tide. Very restful.

 

[Stemar]

Another vote for a swinging mooring, especially if you can find a sheltered one. Much quieter - you don't get other people's halyards banging away. Much easier to pick up, especially when single-handed. You don't need to get lines and fenders deployed as you approach your mooring. I appreciate that manouvering in a marina probably gets easier quite quickly, but it is very intimidating when you start, as you blunder around near all of the expensive boats. Yes, they have their downsides, as you need to use a tender, and there will always be that moment when you remember you left something in the car, or on board when you reach the other end.

I am on a sheltered mooring up a creek, and it is delightful staying on board as the boat swings gently to the wind and the tide. Very restful.

+1.

I have the advantage of a club mooring that costs peanuts and a club pontoon available when I need it. You need a good stable tender and, if your mooring's far from the launching site, a good reliable outboard, but your outlay for the first year, even buying them new will be less than half the cost of most marina berths

If conditions are less than benign, I go out to the boat and bring her alongside the pontoon to load up and for the admiral to board. Of course, there are times when it's a PITA, but If conditions are less than benign, I go out to the boat and bring her alongside the pontoon to load up and for the admiral to board.

We quite often go down to the boat and don't go anywhere, just relax on the mooring. Even if I could afford a marina berth, I think I'd stick with a swing, just for the peace & quiet. A marina's just a housing estate with masts. ()

 

[dylanwinter]

good point

+1.

I have the advantage of a club mooring that costs peanuts and a club pontoon available when I need it. You need a good stable tender and, if your mooring's far from the launching site, a good reliable outboard, but your outlay for the first year, even buying them new will be less than half the cost of most marina berths

If conditions are less than benign, I go out to the boat and bring her alongside the pontoon to load up and for the admiral to board. Of course, there are times when it's a PITA, but If conditions are less than benign, I go out to the boat and bring her alongside the pontoon to load up and for the admiral to board.

We quite often go down to the boat and don't go anywhere, just relax on the mooring. Even if I could afford a marina berth, I think I'd stick with a swing, just for the peace & quiet. A marina's just a housing estate with masts. ()

steve makes a good point

one thing you can do to cut costs is to keep the boat on a swinging mooring in the summer and on a pontoon in the winter

it is also possible to go out to the boat in the dinghy and bring it to the shore to laod wife, kids and bedding up straight from the pontoon

saves a lot of faffing with over-loaded dinghies

Dylan

 

[Grunter]

Dont think anyone has mentioned the Sabre 27, worth a look. I am drawing up a shortlist myself and it rates pretty high. All the people I have spoken to have good things to say about them..

 

[Topcat47]

Any Volvo MD engine is going to be a problem from a spares supply angle. Many parts are made from "unobtainium". Those which are available are hugely expensive. I priced a top end overhaul for a MD1B and ended up with a new Yanmar 1GM10 for only a little more money and a lot less hassle. The Yanmar came with a 12 month warrenty which is more than I'd have got from a home refit on the Volvo.

 

[Iain C]

Dont think anyone has mentioned the Sabre 27, worth a look. I am drawing up a shortlist myself and it rates pretty high. All the people I have spoken to have good things to say about them..

Prettier and faster than a Centaur...whilst one day I would love a 32 foot cruiser racer, I have to say the Sabre is a brilliant boat and an ideal cruiser. Any boaty friends who come board always say the same thing..."no way is this boat only 27 feet long..."

 

[Uricanejack]

If you intend to sail the west of scotland. Its beautiful remote and windy. Finding a good location to put down a mooring not so easy. There are a few good places where comercial moorings are available, Cruve Haven and kilmelfort are reasonable. On the southeren west coast most good bays are already full of private moorings. Even in sheltered bay its a risk to leave on a mooring into fall. Strong winds funnel up and down lochs. Most locals seam to like heavier displacement boats with longer keels. lots of fishers. Older woodenboats like Magruers are popular.many like boats like fisher for its warm wheelhouse or a cuddy cabin for extending the season. They can sail in strong winds. I prefere to have a good set of weather grear and a boat which sails well. I used to enjoy sailing the winter races on a Hunter Sonata which was kept on a mooring by a friend at helensburgh yacht club. I would recomend a sailing course, followed by charteingr a couple of different boats to get a feel for it. As for nice boat if it has nice lines and looks good it will probabaly sail well. If it looks like a colvic it will sail like a skip. I would recomend a 4stroke 10 hp outboard on small boats. cleaner easier to replace. easier to manouver. you can take it off and take it to shop for service or home for winter. A small sadler would be my choice, not to heavy to be boring on a calm day not to light so i couldn't go out on a blustery day. and a good set of oilys so I stay warm and dry. one of the nice things about the west coast is yo can sail all the way from the Clyde to Tobermory in mostly sheltered water.

 

[johnphilip]

Keep your options open

The differences between yacht makes are not so huge. If you set on one model, or even too short a list you may not find a good example available at a sensible price. Start looking around local yards at what is on offer. You will soon learn which ones do not feel right for you. Wait until you find the boat that does not smell damp when you open the hatch, (a tip from a surveyor about first impressions often telling all) that the accommodation will work for your needs and looks right to you. After looking at a few in the flesh you will soon get a feel for what hull lines are.
We have bought 4 boats over the years and each time ended up with a boat we had not set out to find. We have kept all for some time and been pleased with our choices. Just look until you know you like what you are looking at.

 

[aquaplane]

I have cruised in a boat with an outboard in the Sound of Jura to Tobermoray area and wouldn't recomend it. Petrol isn't easy to find and often involves a fair walk when you do find it.

If you are looking at a 25' to 28' boat you should be looking at having one with a diesel inboard and accept that there will be costs involved. You also stand a chance of having some electrical gear if you have an inboard with an alternator.

I sail a Centaur and find it OK for 2 to cruise. A couple with family or a couple of visitors would be OK too.

 

[Swg]

Starter boat

Dont discount a Westerly Pageant. They are bilge keelers making onshore storage and maintainance cheaper. Thye have lodas of internal space and sail well. Unless youve lots of cash then teh smallest coat that meets your average need would be a good choice as a starter boat

 

[1114C]

Hi

Your situation sounds like it has overlaps with mine a little - we are in Glasgow and we sail with a 6 year old and our boat is 26'. We share ours with my sister's family who take out a 12, 10 and 6 year old - they complain (understandably) that things are cramped with all of them but it seems to be doable

I would definitely focus on what boats are available rather than the type you want - there are pros and cons with every boat, what matters most is that you get one in seaworthy condition you are happy putting your family in and trust - do not limit your search to certain makes but instead look at what is for sale in the Clyde or close by - a good time to buy i would have thought as Winter feels like it is well and truly here but the costs do not go away!

We started off in Royal Gourock (which was great and not too expensive) and then moved to Kip to try to get more sailing in. We possibly did get a little more sailing but not by much, the costs though soared compared to a mooring

We are now out west on a mooring which works well for us (and is a fraction of the cost of Kip) but it is a couple of hours from here to get to her (but then Kip could be an hour from north Glasgow if the traffic was not great!)

Clyde was a brilliant place to get used to sailing the boat - we had some great years there pre the 6 year old coming along and there is a ton of places we never got to - good thing is that you can keep the boat in one place and then move on the next year - no need to be tied in

 

[Pitterpatter]

Good kit

Hi,

When we bought our first boat about 5 years ago we bought a Dufour 31. She was in good nick for the age and had room to stand up in, which I think is a must if swmbo is going to join you, vaguely enjoy it and not give you a really hard time about 'your boat'.

Being a bit new to the whole yachty thing though I never really noticed that she never had any kit - in fact the sum of it was a boat hook and 4 fenders. That year we spent a fortune kitting her out, everything from lifebelts up. So my advice from that would be make sure that you get the best boat you can for your budget, and that she has lots of 'stuff' already - otherwise your budget will be well and truly blown!

On Dufours though, I would definately recommend them. They sail well and are well built. There are plenty of 2800s kicking about on the East Coast which sail well. There was also a 27 Safari in our village club for a while which is the same hull as the 27 but a raised coach roof like the 29/31. You might want to have a look at 29s as well - prices may well be remarkably similar!

Good luck.

 

[dunedin]

If you intend to sail the west of scotland. Its beautiful remote and windy. Finding a good location to put down a mooring not so easy. There are a few good places where comercial moorings are available, Cruve Haven and kilmelfort are reasonable. On the southeren west coast most good bays are already full of private moorings. Even in sheltered bay its a risk to leave on a mooring into fall. Strong winds funnel up and down lochs. Most locals seam to like heavier displacement boats with longer keels. lots of fishers. Older woodenboats like Magruers are popular.many like boats like fisher for its warm wheelhouse or a cuddy cabin for extending the season. They can sail in strong winds. I prefere to have a good set of weather grear and a boat which sails well. I used to enjoy sailing the winter races on a Hunter Sonata which was kept on a mooring by a friend at helensburgh yacht club. I would recomend a sailing course, followed by charteingr a couple of different boats to get a feel for it. As for nice boat if it has nice lines and looks good it will probabaly sail well. If it looks like a colvic it will sail like a skip. I would recomend a 4stroke 10 hp outboard on small boats. cleaner easier to replace. easier to manouver. you can take it off and take it to shop for service or home for winter. A small sadler would be my choice, not to heavy to be boring on a calm day not to light so i couldn't go out on a blustery day. and a good set of oilys so I stay warm and dry. one of the nice things about the west coast is yo can sail all the way from the Clyde to Tobermory in mostly sheltered water.

Golly, the first part of this makes our regular sailing ground look unduly scary ! I think the OP started by talking about a boat for cruising the Clyde, which is one of the best and most sheltered cruising grounds in the UK. A great place to start family cruising. Yes a trip to the west is also worthwhile - but going via Crinan is a simple route (if not necessarily light work) and lots of great places to sail in sheltered waters from Crinan.
Yes one can go to remote places (St Kilda?) if you want to, but most of the West coast is far less windy and exposed than sailing out of Weymouth say.

And as for most locals having heavy displacement boats, I don't recognise this. There is the same range of older heavy boats, older smaller boats, modern AWBs as anywhere else. And may people safely cruise the Clyde and West in boats like Drascombe Luggers - albeit choosing their weather.

But after having a different view of that stuff ....... agree that Sadlers are often a good reference point for a family cruiser.

 

[robertt]

Many thanks for the many and very informative replies, it's given me a lot to think about.
I have just come across another boat that sounds quite good at a brokerage that is fairly nearby, a Shipman 28 that seems to have quite a nice interior, this being one of the points that will be important to my significant other! 1974 and costs £10950 with a Bukh engine, it has a full cockpit enclosure and Eberspacher heating. I wonder if I should go and have a look. It is (almost) within my budget (10K) but might go for a lower offer I expect.

 

[Pitterpatter]

A bit of a cheek!

On your last message, one thing I would say about price is be cheeky - start low - you can always go up in price offered but you can't come down. Do your homework though and be able to justify why you are offering such a rediculously low price. Take the price you think the boat is valued at, then I work by subtracting 2/3 of the estimates for everything that needs doing (you're not expecting them to take the whole hit for doing the work). That brings you to a nice figure that you can both work from.

Some people will get offended by the low offer for their pride and joy, but if you can justify the deductions it makes it a bit less painful for them. The other benefit of doing this is it will take negotiations away from nice round numbers. For instance with your shipman if you offered 6k, the chances are you will be negotiating in 1000s. However if you ended with 6230 for instance you have much smaller segments to work in - and you also have a price list of work to use as a basis of negotiations.

Take a friend who knows boats if you can to help come up with a list of jobs to do/things to buy. Hopefully that will help bring boats that are at the edge of the budget into your price range!

Good luck - and have fun!