Standing rigging failures.

[Roberto]

Consider that most standing rigging is mostly single dimension (8mm on my Snowgoose) I wander why the forestay which sometimes are subject to a flögging sail seem to fail less rhan the lowers. Any idea. Why did you decide to upgrade to 10 mm?

All the rigging scantlings are designed with different logical factors of safety for mast, tangs, wire, chainplates, mast base, etc.
"Upgrading" to a higher diameter wire (hence resistance) means that if design loads are exceeded a chainplate can be ripped off with half a square meter of decking, the mast can collapse upon itself or be sent to say hello to fishes through the keel. All cases having occurred a number of times.

 

[geem]

I am beginning to wonder who makes the decision about mast and rigging scantlings. Mast builder or marine architect. I was chatting with the owner of a steel Joshua cruising yacht. He was complaining that his twin forestay setup always sagged even when only one sail was set. I noticed he only had one backstay. So winding in tension on the forestays doubled the tension on his single backstay. This meant that owner mods had been added to the "design" team. Now three seperate inputs with different targets.

Consider that most standing rigging is mostly single dimension (8mm on my Snowgoose) I wander why the forestay which sometimes are subject to a flögging sail seem to fail less rhan the lowers. Any idea. Why did you decide to upgrade to 10 mm?

Lowers are shorter. They have less stretch available to absorb shock loads. The stronger wire will take higher shock loads.
On our inner forestay set up, we have the main tension on the outer forestay as this is the original forestay. Off the wind, the inner forestay that locates our working jib, doesn't need a great deal of tension. When we are heading up wind using the working jib, we have the running backstays tensioned. This stops any pumping of the mast and tensions the inner forestay slightly.
It works well

 

[srm]

I was chatting with the owner of a steel Joshua cruising yacht. He was complaining that his twin forestay setup always sagged even when only one sail was set.

I have sailed with twin forestays and hank on sails on my own boat and another, back in the days before roller furling/reefing became common. Both boats had two backstays. It was generally accepted that the working stay would sag as when setting up the rig the tension was shared. If the sailmaker was aware of the rig the sag could be allowed for when making the sails.

 

[Bagbog]

I expect lots of people following this thread have wondered how much it will cost to get their rig checked properly by a rigger. Does anyone have a typical figure for this? Please use my 32 foot monohull with 3/4 fractional rig and single spreaders as an example, if you like

We commissioned our boatyard's rigging department to do a check of our mast and rigging (while the mast was down). this included checking all lights, running rigging, pulleys, mast head, fixtures, spreaders, furler, shrouds and they went on the boat to check the chainplates, backstay & forestay attachment points.

They charged 100+ vat. gave us a detailed photo report and picked up on the fact that our lower spreader tips were worn (which i probably wouldn't have noticed).

Not cheap but i think good value for peace of mind and to demonstrate to our insurer that we've shown some dilligence wrt condition. (1983 yacht with documented standing rigging replacement in 2017).

 

[steveeasy]

We commissioned our boatyard's rigging department to do a check of our mast and rigging (while the mast was down). this included checking all lights, running rigging, pulleys, mast head, fixtures, spreaders, furler, shrouds and they went on the boat to check the chainplates, backstay & forestay attachment points.

They charged 100+ vat. gave us a detailed photo report and picked up on the fact that our lower spreader tips were worn (which i probably wouldn't have noticed).

Not cheap but i think good value for peace of mind and to demonstrate to our insurer that we've shown some dilligence wrt condition. (1983 yacht with documented standing rigging replacement in 2017).

I think it was very cheap indeed nowadays . Very wise move indeed.
Steveeasy

 

[fredrussell]

I think it was very cheap indeed nowadays . Very wise move indeed.
Steveeasy

Indeed. I would say suspiciously cheap for the amount of tasks in that list.

 

[srm]

Indeed. I would say suspiciously cheap for the amount of tasks in that list.

The mast was down, only had to climb on the boat to check chainplates. No mast work aloft so only one person needed. Assuming an experienced rigger say 5 hrs @£20. Or has inflation been greater than I am allowing for.

Note: have never paid a rigger so could be totally out of touch.

 

[steveeasy]

The mast was down, only had to climb on the boat to check chainplates. No mast work aloft so only one person needed. Assuming an experienced rigger say 5 hrs @£20. Or has inflation been greater than I am allowing for.

Note: have never paid a rigger so could be totally out of touch.

Hi,
Even before inflation getting an experianced person to spend half a day inspecting something and putting it on paper would be near on impossible for £100 . Having said that it’s just VFM and nothing wrong with that id say.
Steveeasy

 

[DownWest]

As for training, my first job as child labour, was making the rigging for my father's boats, sold as kits, part built, or ready to go. Back then, used Talurit swages, quite difficult to get wrong.
Much later, I was handed a job where the inner forestay had failed. Big ketch. Virtualy all the lower fittings showed cracks on dye testing, but none of the top fittings. The boat was built in Italy only 10 yrs before. So, with no services localy, I had 12 mm Norsman ends sent out from Germany and used the original wire, but with links to make up the difference after cutting off all the swages. Would have loved those extended Staylocs... As I had to make the links from flat bar. Try drilling 12mm holes in 12mm SS bar without a bench drill.
Back then there were no insurance restrictions on rig life, so we just got on.
Now, the 20ft I am sorting the keel on, has a stranded forestay as the roller furler was sticky, so will just replace it, curtesy of S3i.

Chainplates: Should be enough to lift the boat. Watched an Amal 54 launch doing just that. But didn't Rum Pirates mast come down because of crevice corrosion below the deck, where hidden?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The mast was down, only had to climb on the boat to check chainplates. No mast work aloft so only one person needed. Assuming an experienced rigger say 5 hrs @£20. Or has inflation been greater than I am allowing for.

Note: have never paid a rigger so could be totally out of touch.

£20 an hour is ridiculously low for a professional rate.

 

[Stemar]

£20 an hour is ridiculously low for a professional rate.

Indeed. I'd expect to pay double that at least. If I'm doing rough costings for I job I want done, I work on £50 an hour per person.

 

[Bagbog]

£20 an hour is ridiculously low for a professional rate.

Personally, I don't think 5hrs or £20/hour are accurate. They charged for an experienced rigger to give the mast a thorough visual inspection and produced a written report for £100 + vat. Probably an hour going over the mast in detail taking notes and photos and an hour to knock up the report.. might of been longer or shorter I suppose. We were paying for the expertise and report really.

 

[steveeasy]

Either way they are doing a report that could , only could come back to bit them. It’s a cheap report and nothing wrong about that .
Sometimes your lucky. I ha my engine crained in too half hour charged me £40. Not often though!!
Steveeasy

 

[arcot]

Also, the top of the stay tends to be the area damaged by halyard wraps. After an inadvertent halyard wrap is released the stay can look OK from deck level but the lay may have been partly untwisted.

There are furlers available that have 1 moving part..... ALAD0

 

[geem]

There are furlers available that have 1 moving part..... ALAD0

Tried one on my last boat. Not impressed.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Had my rig inspected earlier this year. Visual inspection and report was about 300euro . Pant’s accepted it and took rig failure out of the exemptions on my hull insurance.