Stalling in irons

[Neil]

I think this is what I mean........

I've been teaching myself to sail since last season and although I did my Day Skipper recently, my practical experience is limited. I have a shoal draft, long-keeled, gaff-rigged open dayboat, 17.5 ft long, without centre board (Character Boat's Coastal Whammel). I've had a No. of instances when I've come about and stalled before I was able to get on the opposite tack, and been blown back onto the original tack. This was particularly noticable in stronger winds (5 or 6), though it happened today with a force 3, although into a short, steep chop.

I would bear away and try and build up some speed before trying again, but today had two or three failures in a row before getting round.

Is this a reflection of my lack of skill and experience, the nature of the boat (and exacerbated by particular sea conditions) or a combination of all of these?

What should I be doing? What tips can the cognocenti among you offer to improve my performance? Or should I start the engine before trying to tack?

 

[Ray Dunne]

Allow the jib to back...It will help to blow the bow through the wind onto the opposite tack

 

[Neil]

I did try to heave to once today, but couldn't get the jib to back because of the stalling....

 

[Woodlouse]

How much speed did you have on when going into the tack? If it's a light boat then speed will drop off quickly, meaning you'll need more when going head to wind.

 

[oldharry]

Quite a common problem with light long keelers: they often need to be sailed in to the tack, rather than just putting the helm hard over like a dinghy, and which has a strong braking effect. Keep the boat moving going gently into the turn, and keep the jib sheeted in until the wind gets behind it and blows the bows across. Inability to change tack in a strong breeze is also quite a common problem with small 'displacement' boats

You might also need to look at the trim of the boat. If there is a lot of weight aft (self, crew, outboard, fuel etc) then the bow may be too light and being blown off by the wind preventing the boat coming about. Try moving a larger crew member forward into the bows to see if that helps!

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Hi there, two suggestions. One is to make sure your main is sheeted in well so it continues to give some drive as you come up to the wind. The second is to not try to turn too quickly. In many long keeled boats like yours (and mine) you will find that putting the rudder hard over just acts as a brake - it will turn the boat but will also slow her down a lot. Limiting your ruddder angle to about 30 deg will reduce the drag and may help provide the momentum to carry your bow through the turn.
The other thing worth thinking about is lateral weight distribution, in a boat of that size it may make a difference whether you leap across the boat as you turn, or move earlier or later. (Not so much a recommendation as something to experiment with.)
Best of luck.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I've been teaching myself to sail since last season and although I did my Day Skipper recently, my practical experience is limited. I have a shoal draft, long-keeled, gaff-rigged open dayboat, 17.5 ft long, without centre board (Character Boat's Coastal Whammel). I've had a No. of instances when I've come about and stalled before I was able to get on the opposite tack, and been blown back onto the original tack. This was particularly noticable in stronger winds (5 or 6), though it happened today with a force 3, although into a short, steep chop.

I've been discovering just the same in my new toy - 26', 3 tons and a long keel. Getting her round in bouncy conditions needs a definite bear away to get up speed. Timing the turn to miss the waves is good, but she turns so much more slowly than my wee 21' fin keeler that something is bound to hit her. Sometimes gybing is just easier.

I was taught three calls for going about as a child:

Ready about! (Get ready to turn)

Helm's down! (Let's have a go)

Lee-ho (She's going to make it)​

My father learned them on a polish sail training boat in the late 40's ... I can really see the point now!

 

[westernman]

The secret in strong wind is to bear off a bit and build up speed and then go very gently on the rudder at first, gradually giving it more rudder as you go around until you get to about 30 degress of rudder. As you go through the wind take off a little bit of rudder, to say 20 degrees or so.
When right through the wind let jib fly and sheet it in quickly on the otherside - otherwise the main will drive the boat back up into the wind and the jib won't pull enough to keep you on the right tack.

If you still have trouble, let the jib back a while until you are well through the tack and onto a beam reach on the new tack, then ease the main out, then bring the jib accross and sheet it in. As she starts to round up, the main will start to lose drive. This will always work - but you will have a lot of work hauling in the main again. In the worst case if you do it this way, you will end up stationary - but pointing the right way with jib filling on the new tack to keep you going the right way.

You be surprised just how much difference going gently on the rudder at first makes...... It surprised me!

 

[Neil]

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. I was definitely putting it hard over - and the more difficulty I had, the quicker I tried to put about! I'll definitely try doing it more gradually next time, perhaps to the point of pinching before I try to come about?

Certainly, heading into a chop makes the situation worse - and today, it was a nasty short and steep chop - not one that you could time to avoid the waves.

Altering weight distribution is difficult if you are going solo!

More to the point, you've at least taught me it is a recognised problem, and not just my own rank incompetance!

 

[jonjo]

I'll definitely try doing it more gradually next time, perhaps to the point of pinching before I try to come about?

Nooo.

Next time you think tack, grip the tiller tighter and bear away 5 degree for 10 secs, then one continuous tack. Don't adjust any sheets until the jib backs. At the start of the tack and for the first half of the turn to dead to wind ( 25 degrees) just relax your hand on the tiller and let the weather helm steer the boat towards the wind, then more rudder as the boat slows to get head to wind.

If the boat has lost way when you are head to head to wind, center the tiller and let the backed jib push you around.

 

[lancelot]

Stalling in Irons.

I've been discovering just the same in my new toy - 26', 3 tons and a long keel. Getting her round in bouncy conditions needs a definite bear away to get up speed. Timing the turn to miss the waves is good, but she turns so much more slowly than my wee 21' fin keeler that something is bound to hit her. Sometimes gybing is just easier.

I was taught three calls for going about as a child:

Ready about! (Get ready to turn)

Helm's down! (Let's have a go)

Lee-ho (She's going to make it)​

My father learned them on a polish sail training boat in the late 40's ... I can really see the point now!

Following on, what is the correct call for going about?
Some use 2 calls - ready about and lee ho. Then others - ready about, helm's a lee and then lee ho. Many use tacking etc.
I realize any words can be used as long as every crew member understands each call.
I was wondering if there is an official salty one?
Fair winds,
Lancelot

 

[jonjo]

I was taught three calls for going about as a child:

Ready about! (Get ready to turn)

Helm's down! (Let's have a go)

Lee-ho (She's going to make it)​

I like this 3-stage call sequence idea, because when sailing with beginners they are so keep to display willingness on a second final call they start rushing about and throwing sheets off too early.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I like this 3-stage call sequence idea, because when sailing with beginners they are so keep to display willingness on a second final call they start rushing about and throwing sheets off too early.

Absolutely. That's one of the main reasons I use it.

 

[oldharry]

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. I was definitely putting it hard over - and the more difficulty I had, the quicker I tried to put about! I'll definitely try doing it more gradually next time, perhaps to the point of pinching before I try to come about?

Certainly, heading into a chop makes the situation worse - and today, it was a nasty short and steep chop - not one that you could time to avoid the waves.

Altering weight distribution is difficult if you are going solo!

More to the point, you've at least taught me it is a recognised problem, and not just my own rank incompetance!

Thats definitely the problem, helm hard over just stops her dead and she will never make it. Trouble is the temptation is to do it even harder to try and get the thing to go through the wind , when the solution is actually to be gentle keep her moving, and let her take her time.

No wonder they call boats 'she'!

 

[gardenshed]

speed of turn and backing the jib are part of the solution. releasing the mainsheet just before you get to head-to-wind is also worth considering.
with the main sheeted in and the jib released, the boat will luff up into the wind and not want to bear away.

bear away to get some speed
luff up into the wind
let the jib back
release the main sheet
when the boat has turned far enough release the jib sheet and bring in on the new side
sheet in the main and let the boat accelerate and build up speed before pointing too high

 

[Neil]

Thanks for all the tips and advice - and there was a gratifying consensus amongst the replies. While I've usually managed to tack successfully, strong winds and/or a heavy chop have sometimes given me difficulty, with me increasingly putting the helm over harder and harder. Slowing things down to come about and not being too hasty in releasing the gib, even to allowing it to back, seems a little counter-intuitive to the novice. However it only takes a few moments thought to perceive the truth of it. Thanks again.

 

[jwilson]

I think this is what I mean........

I've been teaching myself to sail since last season and although I did my Day Skipper recently, my practical experience is limited. I have a shoal draft, long-keeled, gaff-rigged open dayboat, 17.5 ft long, without centre board (Character Boat's Coastal Whammel). I've had a No. of instances when I've come about and stalled before I was able to get on the opposite tack, and been blown back onto the original tack. This was particularly noticable in stronger winds (5 or 6), though it happened today with a force 3, although into a short, steep chop.

I would bear away and try and build up some speed before trying again, but today had two or three failures in a row before getting round.

Is this a reflection of my lack of skill and experience, the nature of the boat (and exacerbated by particular sea conditions) or a combination of all of these?

What should I be doing? What tips can the cognocenti among you offer to improve my performance? Or should I start the engine before trying to tack?

As others have said, tack slowly: don't just shove the tiller hard over. If you do end up stalled head to wind, put the tiller the OPPOSITE way, and let her go astern till the bows swing round. It's what you have to do to tack most square-riggers.

 

[oldharry]

As others have said, tack slowly: don't just shove the tiller hard over. If you do end up stalled head to wind, put the tiller the OPPOSITE way, and let her go astern till the bows swing round. It's what you have to do to tack most square-riggers.

Had a Wharram Cat that could only be made to go about by going backwards. Up into the wind, helm over to opposite tack and wait for her to gather sternway sufficently to get the jib backed and pull the head off into the new tack. Took some time to work out how to do it, sailing backwards isnt in many of the manuals!

 

[Porthandbuoy]

As mentioned, trim is important. Bear in mind you need to allow for the weight of crew in the cockpit. I had trouble tacking Mariposa, my Hillyard 2 1/2 tonner, until I trimmed her by the head empty, allowing her to trim correctly with two in the cockpit.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Do note Michaelchapman's comment about not putting the helm over more than 30 degrees as well. It's not just about putting the helm over slowly; on many small boats it's possible to put rudder right over to more 45 degrees or so which is not usually of any benefit in any situation. As said put the helm over steadily but, once you get to about 30 degrees just hold it there.

Another thought - how well-balanced is the boat on a close reach? You should be having to hold the tiller a little bit to stop her luffing up (weather helm).

Edit:

Just had a look at at a Whammel on the web - what a lovely looking boat.

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/AYB236

www.characterboats.co.uk

Looking at the length of that tiller I guess you won't putting the helm too far over unless you've got a tame Orang-utan as your helm That's a very long and shallow and keel though.