SSB

[Stevie_T]

Whilst not wishing to argue with you here Ships_cat and not even necessarily disagreeing with you, surely you can see a difference between illegal se of a radio and Piracy on the high seas possibly involving rape and murder?

Whilst I do not condone the illegal use of radio and generally agree with you regarding your coments on this matter, surely you can understand the point of view.

Do you remember the CB radio craze of the 1980's? Total illegal use of radio and yet in itself harmless unless it interferes with some other form of equipment. In fact its illegal use forced the government to give the public a legal bandwidth.

On a similar vein surely the illegal use of SSB in the middle of the ocean interferes with few if any?

If the legal sets were not so prohibitively expensive surely more of us could afford them?

Why is the SSB qualificaton so involved, difficult and expensive to obtain, whilst not pretending to know anything about it, what does one need to know? Do operators really need a degree in electronics or is simply how to operate it enough?

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[Ships_Cat]

You will see that in my posts I only take issue with the misinformation being fed to others on the matter. I stated that it is up to the individual to make up their own mind as to whether they wish to operate illegally or not, but they should be able to make that decision based on correct information.

Those who have read my other posts on radio will understand that I have a great deal of sympathy with the situation UK (and other EU) yachtsmen find themselves in with respect to type approvals of radios. However, that is the requirement of the EU and therefore you have to to live with it or not. If not, then one should not make one's decision based upon clap trap as the advice given, for example, that one can do whatever one wishes in international waters.

In the end the maritime mf/hf radio service is part of the GMDSS and should be treated as such, not as a place for a bunch of CB style operators. Improper use of the service, even in the middle of the ocean, can interfere with services anywhere within propagation range, which can mean interference being inflicted upon others half a world away under suitable conditions.

I could not comment on the content of the UK Long Range Certificate and have not done so, as I am unfamiliar with it (I am not in the UK). If one or two of the posters on here have it, then I would have to suspect that it is probably quite short on content.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[Sea Devil]

John,
I am very comfortable with the fact that when attacked and boarded by pirates armed with AK478s et al We all remained calm - offered no resistance and no member of my crew was harmed - What would you have done differently - better? I am willing to learn.

There is a difference with legislation inacted for 'safe home water' and surviving in the rest of the world whilst long distance cruising. The 'home' legislation is inacted for the ?95%? of yachts that do not leave European waters. Once you become an Blue Water Cruiser it is sometimes not applicable.

The SSB set that is illegal in Europe is 100% legal in the USA and most of the rest of the world - The cost of a legal set in the UK is more than double that of an American legal set...

An SSB capable of transmitting on both sides of the band - Ham and Marine frequencies is legal in USA and most of the rest of the world - UK/European legislations says you must carry 2 sets if you want to do this...

The licence to operate an SSB in the UK is based on a course aimed at 'professional' seaman in big ships - it requires knowlage of many forms of communication not appropriate to a 'pleasure yacht'.
The course is long, expensive and inappropriate and few yachtsmen feel they have value for money.

When Mike was around, because he worked for Offcom, I thought he might have been in a position to put to the 'Powers that Be' some information that they may not have understood when drafting the rules. e.g. that an operators licence for an SSB could be greatly simplified for cruising yachts people - That installing a snipped set (provided the Ham frequencies were not used except in an emergency) was also sensible.

Folks Blue Water Cruising are a fairly small community - (probably there are about 2000 yachts circumnavigating at any one moment) I was/am somewhat surprised to be personnally attacked when all I am trying to do is to see if it is possible to make changes to existing rules that, if obeyed, may endanger rather than help.

I am simply trying to put a minority point of view.



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[Sea Devil]

John we crossed posts
<Improper use of the service, even in the middle of the ocean, can interfere with services anywhere within propagation range,>

Come on - get real - How many YOB yacht radio operators have you heard/met offshore?

Tell me what is the danger of my causing 'interferance with services' by my operating an SSB without an operators licence, but 10 years experience of doing so, on a daily basis to Portishead - Monacco - Herb - David Jones - US Navy and other yacht stations. (in the USA I just fill in a form to get the licence)

In fact the UK course I am complaining about really does little to tell you how to operate your Icom 710. Lots of theory...

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[Anonymous]

>>The licence to operate an SSB in the UK is based on a course aimed at 'professional' seaman in big ships - it requires knowlage of many forms of communication not appropriate to a 'pleasure yacht'.
The course is long, expensive and inappropriate and few yachtsmen feel they have value for money.<<

The Long Range Certificate is for operators who are operating voluntarily - i.e. yachts and very small commercial vessels, or vessels in sea area A1. I've just taken the LRC and there was quite a lot to learn, and it was expensive, but I don't think that it was inappropriate for sea areas A2 and A3. If the yachtsman is always going to be in sea area A1 then all he needs is VHF in any case! There is no safety advantage in having one's distress call heard in Djibouti if one is in trouble two miles south of the Dodman.

What do you mean by "it requires knowlage of many forms of communication not appropriate to a 'pleasure yacht'."? The only form of communication covered was radio telephony on VHF, MF and HF unless you include EPIRBS and SARTs, which in any case are very appropriate.

There is a satellite module which is optional and costs no extra on the course or the exam. Today it is probably outside the reach of most yachtsmen but in a few years, who knows? You do not need to take the satellite module to obtain a LRC.

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[Ships_Cat]

Michael

I don't think you have said anything in that last post {Edit: in fact a couple up now I see} that I disagree with, and if you look back through my previous ones in this thread those will ring the same.

The only matters I do not agree with are when people are given bad information as if it were factual with respect to the situation of legality and enforcement, and those are what I have addressed.

I have an Icom IC-M802 in my boat which is (legally ) capable of transmitting anywhere between 1.8MHz and 30MHz (I have an amateur licence as well) and I think it kind of strange that the UK has difficulty with such a set. As you say, it is accepted most everywhere else.

Such sets do enable non amateurs so inclined to abuse the amateur bands (and those of other services as well) but in the end anyone can get hold of a much cheaper non marine transceiver to do that in any event if that is what their intentions are.

From the little I have gleaned from other's comments in threads on the UK Long Range Certificate it includes things such as INMARSAT C, etc which for the small cruising yacht would seem to be unneccessary. However, once one gets to 50 foot plus, there are plenty of yachts coming down this way which are so fitted, so perhaps certification of operators beyond VHF and SSB use should be an extra step again rather than one forced upon the small cruising boat who never intends using anything else but SSB and VHF.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Ships_Cat on 05/12/2004 11:18 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Ships_Cat]

Looks like I made wrong assumprions from previous threads, the LRC does not cover INMARSAT C from what you say Lemain.

Michael, it may very well be that you are quite competent to operate an HF radio but that does not mean everyone else is so some form of certification is necessary. However, as I have said, I am not in a position to comment on the UK LRC.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[Anonymous]

>>In fact the UK course I am complaining about really does little to tell you how to operate your Icom 710. Lots of theory... <<

I took the LRC the week before last and it is nothing like that. Most of the time is spent hands-on actual equipment and role-play, sending, receiving and logging distress and urgency messages.

You are required to show the examiner (one to one) that you can programme a Navtex, handle VHF, transmit and receive on all (marine) bands on the ICOM M710, handle a DSC controller, recognise and be familiar with the regular testing of these plus SARTs and EPIRBS. The theory is minimal and does little more than explain why you might want to transmit on VHF, MF or HF. After all, if you don't understand that you might decide to send an urgency signal on HF or MF when you are in sea area A1. After all, in the case of a real distress call when your boat is on fire, wouldn't it be better to put out 150W or even 1500W rather than the 25W of a VHF?

Those who have not been on the course wouldn't know why that would be a bad idea.

I'm all for liberalisation but the idea of large numbers of yachtsmen installing sets with the ability to transmit on any frequency (not 'channel', I mean frequency) across the MF and HF bands at a power of 150W could be a menace unless they have a good understanding and knowledge of the subject. That's where the amateur training and exams and the LRC come in.

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[snowleopard]

IMO the big hole in the syllabus of both LRC abd SRC is that the information given on the workings of the DSC system is pretty well limited to the distress situation. there was a serious bug in my dsc controller which caused me a lot of confusion and the knowledge i got from the LRC course didn't help.

in the end it was the kind folks round here who set me straight,enabling me to get the set re-programmed and use it correctly!

perhaps YBW should be accredited to issue licences.

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[npf1]

Lemain - could you please let me know where you did your LRC course? Thanks

<hr width=100% size=1>Have boat. Will travel. Maybe cruising in 2005 - wanna join me?

 

[Sea Devil]

Well that sounds as if I was wrong -

May I ask - did you know how to operate a VHF before you went on the course?

Did you not know how to test your epirb before you went on the course?

Did you know how to fomulate and send a mayday on VHF before the course? If so how is the message differant on an SSB? I would love to know.

Did you know the range of your VHF before you went on the course?

Most people taking the course for the right to legally operate an SSB have already done some sailing - VHF, Mayday, Epirb testing would be something they already know about.

If you use an SSB regulaly and care about your batteries you will quickly learn about power.

Does your SSB have DSC? Quite a lot of extra money involved so_

If you do not have DSC on your SSB did they tell you which frequenceies to call for help on and what assitance or even contact you may expect from such a call?

I have ITU channels programmed into my set - do you?

It is very possible I am wrong about the course and plainly you feel it was good value for money and has given you confidence - That is very good and positive.
May I ask how much it cost and how long it took to complete?









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[Anonymous]

http://www.yachtcom.co.uk/ but there are many others.

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[kesey]

Ship's Cat: "So here we have someone, who encourages everyone to become radio pirates by feeding them incorrect information based on, apparantly, his own pirate operations and crowing in an encouraging way that the authorities will not do anything about it.

But at the same time he has a page on his internet site sort of upset at another type of pirate, the type that apprehends one on on the high seas for the purposes of petty theft, and also complaining because the authorities (aka the USA navy) did not do enough about it. Seemed a little contradictory in stance to me - his piracy is fine and beyond criticism, but another's piracy is not."

Equating the use of a snipped SSB with being apprehended "on the high seas for the purposes of petty theft" is ludicrous and worthy of only the most anal of civil servants. Sir Humphrey come back all is forgiven.

The next time you meet a high seas pirate intent on petty theft give him my regards. I suspect he will be about 4 years of age. His elder brother will have less petty notions on his mind.

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[Anonymous]

Mike,

Gosh, that's a long one, but here goes....

>>May I ask - did you know how to operate a VHF before you went on the course?<<

Yes, I had the restricted VHF certificate without DSC. Previously I have held an aeronautical VHF certificate as a PPL and at the time I took the course I had just passed all three of the RSGB's exams to be a full radio amateur.

>>Did you not know how to test your epirb before you went on the course?<<

Yes, I read the manual and I am an electronics engineer so I have a basic grasp of the theory. I did learn that there was a product recall out on my EPIRBS and they are going back to the manufacturer for updating (that, like many other things I learnt on the course, was outside the syllabus).

>>Did you know how to fomulate and send a mayday on VHF before the course? If so how is the message differant on an SSB? I would love to know.<<

Remember we are talking GMDSS. All mandatory listening is to end soon. So in order that you are likely to be heard you must first send an 'alert' via DSC, before you broadcast your distress or urgency call and messages. I had had no experience of DSC before this course. As for SSB being different, it isn't the modulation (J3E) that is at issue, it is the difference in propagation and being able to select the most appropriate bands and frequencies when you are outside A1. Many of these terms meant little to me before the course and they are essential if you want to understand what GMDSS is all about. If you don't fully underestand how the GMDSS system works then it is pretty pointless lugging expensive radio gear around anyway.

>>Did you know the range of your VHF before you went on the course?<<

Yes, I held the RYA restricted VHF certificate. I was 'upgrading' from that to the LRC which, of course, covers all the bands.

>>Most people taking the course for the right to legally operate an SSB have already done some sailing - VHF, Mayday, Epirb testing would be something they already know about.<<

Most of those on my course had done a fair bit of sailing - several were taking the course to go on the ARC next year but all of us agreed that there was a heck of a lot to learn. Nobody just sailed through without a good deal of work.

>>If you use an SSB regulaly and care about your batteries you will quickly learn about power.<<

About when it is appropriate to reduce the output power? That has nothing to do with caring for batteries.

>>Does your SSB have DSC? Quite a lot of extra money involved so_If you do not have DSC on your SSB did they tell you which frequenceies to call for help on and what assitance or even contact you may expect from such a call?<<

As I said earlier in this thread, my MF/HF set does not have the DSC controller although it is GMDSS enabled. The course tutor recommended that in my case I should use my mini-M satellite phone to call Falmouth Coastguard wherever I am in the world - this makes Falmouth the controlling MRCC and they can alert local services to my status and tell them to listen or call me on the appropriate MF/HF frequencies.

>>I have ITU channels programmed into my set - do you?<<

Yes.

>>It is very possible I am wrong about the course and plainly you feel it was good value for money and has given you confidence - That is very good and positive.
May I ask how much it cost and how long it took to complete?<<

I learnt a lot and I can legally operate my SSB radio. I don't need to worry about entering any port in the world because I am fully legal. I would have worried that one day some over-zealous local official could take advantage of the situation as nearly happened to me in La Goulette, Tunis, in 1976, when they got very sniffy about my using scuba gear, which had been banned a month or so before, without my knowledge.

Good value? My course cost £335 plus the mandatory £83 exam fee and was taken over four days. There were 6 people on the course and some of the cost was in written materials so let's say £320 x 6 = £1920 for four days = £480 per day. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me; our local garage mechanic charges £65 per hour = £520 per day and I suppose that the course tutor was at least as qualified as the mechanic

The point is, as I see it, that I am required to have a licence and it is not unduly difficult or expensive to comply. I am more informed, probably a bit safer and feel more relaxed having the LRC than not having it.

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[Sea Devil]

Thank you.

A very reasonable reply.

OK I am wrong.

You are a ham and know how to operate all the items I checked on so I will shut up - I have not done the course - only read the Syallbus.

When I decided to cruise inbetween jobs I got to Gib. In those days communications were not what they are today - I ordered and fitted from Cruisermart a snipped SSB - and installed it - I spoke to some friends and found out about the frequencies and times of the nets, how to talk to Portishead, how to download weather charts and later how to make Sailmail work.

The book that came with the Icom told me about about modulation and how to tune the set and the difference in daylight - nightime and I got on with it. Have used the set(s) daily ever since. Now I am not the brightest light on the christmas tree so more or less assume anyone can do what I can do.

I accept everything you say - get a sat phone if you want help from coastguard cos without DSC your stuck and most of the other yachts out there will not have DSC and as I said before lots of merchant ships will not 'receive' the message.

If you are going to use the SSB only for chatting to other yachts then you will know a lot and get going easily. It is a wonderful way of keeping in touch with friends and that's all. As your course instructor said - use the sat phone to call the search and rescue guys

But hey - if its value is chatting to friends then it is like a mobile phone - if it is like a mobile phone why are you obliged to have a licence? Mobile phones can interfere with aircraft, medical equipment and cinema audience.

Big smile - will stop - must get on with the varnish but I really do appreciate the considered reply and will think further about my point of view.

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[DaveNTL]

Michael (Bambola)

You might recall a few months back I came to your defence (when you queried with mike martin about the LRC) in agreeing with you that in the USA you only had to fill in a form to get your VHF Certifcate (and not do a SRC type course) and that
SSB's are common and they don't normally do an LRC type certificate there.

I said I was going to the States to buy a boat and would look into it. I did.

The bottom line seems to be that the USA has done a typical USA thing (as in which UN agreements they choose to enforce and which they ignore) with respect to radio licencing, in that they signed up to the International agreement then chose to do their own thing.

Yes you only need to fill in a form to get a VHF licence. As for an SSB set, you can buy them and use them in the States, but technically you still should have a licence. If you don't have a licence you don't risk much chance of prosecution because they don't police it.

The reason, I was told verbally by the Coast Guard, was that they consider it safety equipment and don't wish to stop people buying safety equipment. So, they signed up to the international agreement, but because they don't actually agree with it, they don't police it in their own waters. They are however quite clear in advising that this isn't legal outside the USA and licencing is and will be enforced.

Before anyone jumps on me for being anti-american, I'm just stating the facts. Interpret it for yourself from this extract from the FCC Licensing website.....

WHAT IS DOMESTIC OPERATION?

Ships are considered as operating domestically when they do not travel to foreign ports or do not transmit radio communications to foreign stations. Sailing in international waters is permitted, so long as the previous conditions are met. If you travel to a foreign port (e.g., Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, British Virgin Islands) a license is required. Additionally, if you travel to a foreign port, you are required to have an operator permit as described in Section III.

WHAT RADIO EQUIPMENT MAY I USE?

You do not need a license to use marine VHF radios, any type of EPIRB, any type of radar, GPS or LORAN receivers, depth finders, CB radio, or amateur radio (an amateur license is required). Ships that use MF/HF single side-band radio, satellite communications, or telegraphy must continue to be licensed by the FCC. On April 17, 1996, the U.S. Coast Guard suspended enforcement activities concerning FCC Radio Station Licenses carried aboard voluntary ships.





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[Sea Devil]

God bless America! That was more or less what the yanks in Trini and Grenada said - Quite a reasonable attitude now that sat telephones are so availble..

I am going down that road - possibly - I am looking for something like a Prout - Oceanic et al - when I have sold Bambola if I cannot find one easily here I will fly to Florida and have a look around Fr Lauaderdale and Annapolis - There are several Prouts and similar for sale on the net around there and it is the crossing time to get one back to Europe

Did you get your boat in the states? Get it back here?

How did it work out?

regards
Michael

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[DaveNTL]

Didn't get the boat that we went for. We had paid the deposit and had a survey and sea trial set up. The day we were travelling the broker phoned to say the guy had sold it that morning and could we cancel!!!?? err no! So we went anyway and had a look at several of the same model from Boston down to Annapolis.

Saw one absolutely loaded with kit, so much so that I'd be embarrassed to mention to some of my sailing pals - the EPIRB and sat phone are fine - the satellite TV dome on the back and 3 flat screen TV's are a bit... ahem... but anyway...

Now we've been sitting watching the exchange rate go more in our favour and we are considering how to disguise the dome as the guy has dropped the price another $20k.

We wouldn't be bringing it back, the boss doesn't fancy our weather for sailing. We'll be keeping it there and spend a few years between Chesapeake / Florida before going further afield.


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[Sea Devil]

I was pretty impressed with the boating lifestyle of the yanks - do it really comfortably = and why not.?

They tend not to travel as much as europeans but I think that's to do with the culture rather than seamanship - having said that you hear them on the radio discussing when the 'group' should leave Grenada for Trinidad - but that's because its possible to get all the way from the Chesapeake to Grenada without doing an overnighter (except perhaps the Dominican Republic to Puerto Rico.

Good luck with the hunt - never mind the dome - it will fit in fine over there and why bother to come back - The climate is great - my limbs really hurt today with the cold

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[Ships_Cat]

Michael

In some countries it is possible, if one feels one has the knowledge already or is able to self learn, to sit the examination for the equivalent of the LRC without doing the course (which seems to be expensive).

I do not know if that is the case in the UK but there was a suggestion on a previous thread that it was so, or perhaps just having to do a short review with a trainer. Perhaps someone on the forum knows.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.