SSB

[Sea Devil]

I think John has really covered this well - just to add my 2p worth - An SSB is not really useful in UK waters or the Med - nice - fun to have but not really essential.

When you cross the atlantic it becomes different - distances are greater - the cruising fleet is spread out - and onward westwards round the rest of the world till you get back to the Med and again its hardly worth haveing...

That is why all the operators licence business is such nonsense. The rules only apply or are only enforceable in home waters. Overseas enforcement agencies will not be interested in protecting stupid british rules - why should they?

All sets are legal in the Indies and USA and Pacific and Indian O so do not bother with obeying totally out of touch rules created by people in the jobsworth and for the boys trade... Almost nobody does.

They have created a load of rubbish rules they cannot enforce because nobody is going to bother with their SSB in european waters........ Except for fun..

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[cliffb]

Calm down dear, it's only a radio..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[Sea Devil]

but you are not my sister - are you?

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[cliffb]

Gadzoocks...the secret is out!
Michael... Phone home. Our mother is worried about you.

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[Mike_Martin]

Re: SSB Uisteach

In Essence what you are saying is the situation.

Radio in some services is managed on a world-wide basis, Aeronautical, Maritime and Amateur are examples of this. The basis of the rules is the same everywhere, however and here's the rub other radio uses are very different so each Adminsitration has approval requirements to ensure that the internationally organised stuff doesn't interfere with national services hence what used to be called "Type Approval"

This is further complicated by the fact that these radio services don't actually have a band, operating on spectrum in the LF, MF, HF, VHF and UHF bands. Now Marine and Aeronautical kit is built to operate only within the relevant parts of those bands due to Type Approval. Amateur kit can access lots of out of band services such as Maritime and Aeronautical, due to the fact that the traditional "Ham" actually builds his own kit and therefore Type Approval can't be applied. The Amateur radio licence then tells the "Ham" what they can actually use.

Does this help?

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101>http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101</A>

 

[Mike_Martin]

Just to add.

I know that ICOM UK are driven mad by the fact that ICOM INC (japan) doesn't see any point in approving for Europe!!

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101>http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101</A>

 

[Gunfleet]

I believe the costs of getting the sets type approved are horrendous, so they have to balance that against how many they can sell. Still, if the turnover comes via another country there isn't any real pressure on them to get the set type approved... or is that a bit cynical of me?

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[Uisteach]

Ofcom Regs

Hi Mike

From your signature I'm assuming that you are professionally involve in radio comms, so could I ask two specific questions?

1. Can a UK registered small vessel install and operate an SSB marine radio outside UK waters that is not UK type approved? That is, does any restriction on installation and use ONLY apply to UK waters?

2. If a radio that is not type approved is fitted to a UK registered vessel what needs to be done to render it unusable (and therefore not in breach of regulations when in UK waters) - disconnect the aerial/power supply? Or is more needed?

I gather from a previous post that the only reasonably priced marine SSB that is UK type approved is a Barrett's?

I've been to the Ofcom site but haven't been able to find anything specific to the kind of issues raised here (which may be my fault - if there's a link please let me know).

Thanks.

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[Sea Devil]

Delighted to see Mike back -

I think most yachtie people will agree that there is no strong reason for using an SSB in UK or Mediterranean waters - hardly any nets - easy telephone access and almost no safety issues that are not covered better by other means.#

Once you go off shore - cross the Atlantic - it all changes - Communications by SSB become very important and a real safety issue. BUT OFCOM HAS NO JURISTICTION or authority in international waters (Mike will shout but off shore they are impotant)

Once the Brit registered boat arrives in West Indies - Cuba - USA - Venezuala - the 'illegal' set in UK /Euopean waters is legal.

Catch 22 is - It is illegal for a British registered boat to use it but legal for everyone else!!!!!

Theorecticly the local (west indies??? USA, Cuban??) radio authorties can fine you for operating a locally legal set from a british boat (in which it becomes illegal!!) but of course no judge or magistrate is going to be amused if the local radio guys start bringing that sort of case to court.

You are 100% safe in operating any set you like outside UK waters as the local radio authority people think that the brits at ofcm are as daft as I think they are.

Excluding Mike who is a very very very nice man and even traffic wardens have a right to express the company policy!

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[Uisteach]

Yes, I appreciate what you're saying. For us it's about being on the point of buying expensive gear and not wanting to make some costly error. There's a saying that if something can go wrong then at some point it will.

The ssb issue is a mess. I looked up the Barrett radios and the Barrett 980 DSC Class "E" transceiver is £3000.00, which is about twice the cost of an Icom. I'm surprised that somewhere there isn't a list of UK approved equipment. Perhaps someone knows of one?

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[Sea Devil]

why not wait til you get to Gibraltar - Shepards are Icom dealers - or you can order from Icom UK or West Marine in USA and it will be lots and lots cheaper and not rules or regulations at all. Put the ground plate in here next time you haul..

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[Uisteach]

Hi Bambola, I don't want to tempt fate but we expect to be starting out from outside Europe, but given that we haven't yet bought the radio it would have been good to have started out with one that was UK approved. Although no one outside the UK may care that using it is illegal, it would be good not to have to consider that as even a remote possibility. And also, if we (when we) get back to the UK we will then (I guess) have to remove and dispose of perfectly good kit.

Seems one of those cases where rationality is absent.

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[Ships_Cat]

Re: Ofcom Regs

All of the radio installation, the radio licence and the operator's qualifications have to comply with the requirements of the state that the boat is flagged in no matter where the boat is in the world or where the installation of the equipment is done. In your case that seems to be the UK and therefore what Mike says stands.

So you have 3 issues, no matter where you are in the world someone on board has to be able to produce a UK operator's certificate (or another acceptable to the UK) if the radio is being operated, the boat has to have a radio licence and callsign and the installation has to comply with UK requirements.

It is unlikely that if a name brand marine ssb is installed that any foreign state that inspected your vessel would care, however they will if the vessel does not have a radio licence/callsign or a certified operator from the country the vessel is flagged in. Normally the foreign state would have to have some particular reason to inspect your vessel (port state inspection) but that reason may be as simple as someone reporting, or the authorities being aware of your operating the radio in their territory without a callsign. Such an inspection may also eventuate if there is suspicion (real, imagined or concocted) of illegal activity such as drugs, or a land based crime.

If to get a licence for the ssb station in the UK you have to identify what radio equipment is carried (ie evidence that it is an approved set) then you will have to make a false declaration as to the radio's type. If you don't have to declare what the radio is then it would be easy to install any radio you liked.

In the end the decision is yours and it is easy for others to say that you have nothing to worry about; it is not their boat that may be detained nor their radio that may be confiscated (it happens). If you plan on visiting third world countries you may find that in the case of any dispute (maritime or not) with the authorities, the lack of a radio licence, etc could be used as an excuse to detain you in order for them to satisfy their other concerns or curiosities.

It also seems to be not known by many that the same applies to amateur radio operation. Wherever one is in the world you have to operate within the constraints of ones operators certificate as if one was at home. Also, unlike marine ssb, an amateur cannot operate in the territorial waters or territory of any foreign country unless he has the permission of that country (a temporary licence or reciprical arrangement such as CEPT).

Again, it is easy for others to harrass you to not bother because in their view the above is not important - in the end it is entirely your own decision and the risks are your own, it is unfair for anyone else to drive you one way or the other. I work in the marine industry so my decision was easy, I could not afford to be caught out, my radio installation, licencing and operator's certificates comply fully with the those of the country our vessel is flagged in (New Zealand).

Flagging the vessel in another country with more flexible requirements is always an alternative, however, that will require ownership of the boat to be majority held by a national of that country - either a private individual, or a company registered in that country (the latter not normally worthwhile for a small vessel because of cost).

Hope that is of some sensible help.

John


<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[Mike_Martin]

Re: Ofcom Regs

John's (Ship's cat) post is spot on.

One other thing that must be understood is that this is not just a UK issue! The Icom set is not approved for use on any European vessel, it is specifically approved for use in the US and Administrations that use the same approvals.

Michael is possibly correct, in effect at least, that a USCG officer may not want to prosecute you for having non-EU spec Maritime kit BUT you should be aware that he can refer you to the FCC who WILL refer you back to us for action to be taken.

On the Amateur kit without the relevant licence who knows? I don't take much notice of Amateur radio as it is a "hobby" service and not intended to enhance safety at sea! If it does it's by accident not by design! I know the UK Coastguard doesn't monitor Amateur frequencies and I can't imagine any other serious Maritime SAR organisation doing so either.
Mike

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101>http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101</A>

 

[Mike_Martin]

Just to amplify what I said above and in case you miss it. This is not a just UK issue as is being implied, the set is not approved within Europe.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101>http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101</A>

 

[Uisteach]

Re: Ofcom Regs

Thanks for that John (and Mike).

I've just spent a few hours on the internet trying to compile a list of UK type approved SSB tranceivers and prices, and I'd hoped to be able to post it here, but I've got absolutely nowhere. Maybe some of you know of one or more? If so maybe we could compile a list here?

Mike mentioned Barratt, so I guess this is UK type approved (?). The 980E SSB Transceiver is listed on:

http://www.mantsbrite.com/

@ £3000.00

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[Ships_Cat]

Re: Ofcom Regs

Sorry, but as I am not in the EU I cannot easily advise what sets are accepted there.

However, Furuno whose cheaper ssb sets are also widely used on pleasure vessels around the world list their DSC capable ssb's on a number of the Furuno EU country internet sites. They may be worth following up on.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[Koeketiene]

Re: Ofcom Regs

Have also been checking up on a Furuno SSB.

Their cheaper 1503EM model is available from West Marine (no DSC) but is NOT CE approved.

Their more expensive FS1570 model, however, IS CE approved (and has DSC) but weighs in at just over £3,000 (price given to me by Furuno UK).
Could be cheaper elesewhere, but have as yet be unable to find where. If anybody does: please post here.

William

<hr width=100% size=1>Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills.

 

[Sea Devil]

But I think the issue is 'operating' the set - transmitting. Out side territorial waters they cannot touch you. In the UK they do not monitor ssb transmissions - Mike told me that ages ago...

Of course Mike will tell you the 'official' line it would be jobsworth not to. Same for the cat - he is jobsworth. They do not live in the real world of voyaging small sailboats.

The offence is 'operating' the equipment - transmitting - and really you will not do that till you leave UK waters You will hardly bother in the Med as there is also no reason to use the SSB - as I said before.

They cannot take the equipment away from you for simply having it onboard.

Frankly they are trying to scare you. Something like 80% of the blue water cruisers I know from UK/Europe do not have an operators licence - as I remember the form you just licence the set along with the radar etc and once out of UK waters nobody gives a damn. That is a reality - Nobody care except ofcom who have all sorts of reciprocal arrangements that nobody bothers with.

Outside any countries territorial waters - at sea - then the law does not apply. You are in international waters

I used an SSB, in the old now defunt Portishead days, 3 or 4 times a week from the Med - for years, to Bristol making calls. Let me assure you the Portishead operators never once asked if I had an operators licence and in the beginning my stumbling efforts may have suggested I had not.

If you have lots of money and a few thousand 'extra' pounds will not make a dent in your wallet/purse then of course the advice give by the bureaucrats is correct and you will sleep easy. I am certain all you are buying is peace of mind - nothing wrong with that if you can afford it.

If you are intent on blue water cruising or circumnavigating you will find you have to sail a bit close to the wind sometimes in order just to survive.

When you get to the West Indies - if you go into Martininique or Guadaloup, pick up a few extra clearance forms from the box outside the customs office. Keep them on board because one day you will either forget to clear out - or you will leave an untenable anchorage and arrive in another Island - If you do not have clearance papers you will be sent back to the previous Island - on arrival at the previous island you will be fined for leaving without clearance - so do not go back - just fill in the French clearance form yourself - sign it and hand it to the official saying you came from Martinique - Now you know I am a (somewhat middle aged) rebel.... smile...





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[Sea Devil]

Forgot to add it is vital that you get an SSB that has been 'snipped' - re-programmed to operate on both sides of the sideband - it must be able to transmitt on the Ham frequen cies.

If ever you get in trouble - eg washed up on an african beach like some friends of mine- the only people who will help you will be the Hams. In these circumstances they will make phone calls for you, arrange to contact your insureres - try to get help to you.

Catch 22 is that to have a snipped set is illegal in UK waters.

Having the abiltiy to talk to hams when you are in deep trouble is a major safety issue and without that ability it makes the SSB a somewhat futile exercise.

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