SS Richard Montgomery

[Elessar]

The start of the Thames Estuary is is sometimes defined as the line between Southend and Sheerness. SS Montgomery is slightly east of the simple line thus in the estuary. Wiki lists her as in the estuary.

However the Thames estuary can be considered as the entire Tideway up to Teddington lock but that definition would not fit with how we regard any other river in the UK where tidal limits are well beyond what most would consider the estuary. To claim Chelsea Reach is estuarine is odd to say the least

All agreed. But because it is called an estuary does not mean it isn’t part of the river. An estuary is part of a river. And as I said I wouldn’t normally much care what someone called it!

 

[Stork_III]

Some of the explosive material such as ammonium picrate is water soluble and if there was free flow of waer, would leach away. However its not so much the explosives maybe, but their detonators. One can burn TNT safely but a percussive blast sets it off with a bang. So if the detonator mixture decays or is washed away or the channels that lead flame front to main charge are blocked then the thing is safe. .

I would hope the cargo manifest would list type of explosive, manufacturers and type of detonator, but in the chaos of a war such information might be gappy

Would the shells be transported with detonators in place or carried separately?

 

[Applescruffs]

I’m not sure that it’s true but I’m pretty sure sure I heard that there were ,(are), still some other nasties on board as well as the explosives….. mustard gas ? If there’s a controlled explosion I’m sure that would definitely release the gas, maybe that’s why a slow dismantle is the way to go instead of a Big Bang and is maybe the reason why this problem has been kicked down the road since the thing sank seventy odd years ago….

Mustard Gas was a banned substance following the First World War and its discovery on an Allied ship would prove to be somewhat embarrassing to say the least.

I may be wrong about this, maybe someone else knows for sure ?.

cheers

 

[Keith 66]

Would the shells be transported with detonators in place or carried separately?

The reports say most of the bombs carried were unfused, but fuses were probably carried seperately.

As for mustard gas, there was an incident not far from the montgomery about 30 years ago, I heard it on BBC Essex, It was reported that a fishing boat had trawled up a canister or casing not far from the wreck that had started oozing liquid, one of the crew at least was badly affected & i seem to remember them getting taken off by rescue services. But there were no subsequent news reports.
But there is so much stuff from two world wars littering the bottom of the river it could have come from anywhere.

 

[oldgit]

Banksy probably nicked his big idea from the in-mates of Sheppey ?

 

[Stemar]

I guess that after a previous attempt to salvage a munitions ship, rather put them off having another go! ....

SS Kielce - Wikipedia

Although, I suspect a lot of the RM explosives may well be inert now?

"It was claimed that the explosion "brought panic to Folkestone’s town and chaos to the beaches", and a few sources claimed that it caused a "tidal wave". In fact two employees of the salvage company in a small boat only about 400 yards (370 m) from the wreck witnessed only "a small ripple and some spray", and it is calculated that the resulting sea wave cannot have been more than 2 feet (0.6 m) high.[7]"

Would I get into trouble if I were to speculate which paper published that "information"?

To be fair, while I'd expect the broadsheets to do better, it could have been any of the tabloids.

 

[Greenheart]

How long has the potential for a huge explosion there, been widely discussed? And how much longer could it be safely discussed on paper, without any actual physical change significantly increasing the risk of a spontaneous pop?

Is there really any more evidence that it will go off if undisturbed, than points in the opposite direction - that it hasn't happened in 77 years of gradual deterioration?

I wonder what the risk assessment process is, which determines that it's better to do something that could precipitate a calamity, than to do nothing and endure not knowing when, or more importantly, if.

Isn't it likely that the MoD has (elsewhere, on a small scale) tested the consequences of moving (and just leaving) identical similarly-exposed munitions, and concluded that the absence of risk warrants a do-nothing policy with regard to the explosives themselves? All else is just wadding for journalists.

I haven't read every post here, sorry if I missed answers to all my questions.

 

[penberth3]

......Mustard Gas was a banned substance following the First World War and its discovery on an Allied ship would prove to be somewhat embarrassing to say the least.

I may be wrong about this, maybe someone else knows for sure ?.

cheers

It wouldn't be embarrassing at all. It's no secret that mustard gas bombs and shells were produced in WW2. ISTR Churchill would have used it against a German invasion.

 

[Rum Run]

It wouldn't be embarrassing at all. It's no secret that mustard gas bombs and shells were produced in WW2. ISTR Churchill would have used it against a German invasion.

Given some of the nasties that the Petroleum Warfare Dept had installed along the SE coast this would not be a surprise

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Would the shells be transported with detonators in place or carried separately?

The shells I have seen (see post on the Volnay) were anti personnel shells all had the primer to set off the main propulsion charge and on the top was a timer detonator that could be armed prior to firing. It was brass conical in shape and was a series of rings that presumably were configured to detonate at a specific time after firing thus dispersing the lead anti personnel balls. I heard that someone had found a box of them separate to the shells but the two I have seen were on the shells themselves which were stuffed full of cordite.

 

[mjcoon]

Some of the explosive material such as ammonium picrate is water soluble and if there was free flow of waer, would leach away.

I was initially surprised at the idea of a water soluble explosive. Then I remembered the fun I had as a schoolboy with nitrogen tri-iodide!

 

[Blueboatman]

I remember this incident
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...chemical-cloud-wwi-munitions-ship/amp/?espv=1

 

[Greenheart]

My computer couldn't or wouldn't open that link. It may be my system doesn't like The Sun. ?

I assume this is the same incident, from Wikipedia: 2017 Birling Gap incident - Wikipedia

 

[sarabande]

The reports say most of the bombs carried were unfused, but fuses were probably carried seperately.

As for mustard gas, there was an incident not far from the montgomery about 30 years ago, I heard it on BBC Essex, It was reported that a fishing boat had trawled up a canister or casing not far from the wreck that had started oozing liquid, one of the crew at least was badly affected & i seem to remember them getting taken off by rescue services. But there were no subsequent news reports.

I was involved in many of the plans for the transport of explosives through Somerset and lesser counties during the 1990s. The explosives were either for use in the quarries (mainly Mrs Yeoman's) or transit onwards to or from assorted military bases and stores in the SW.

It was normal practice for detonators to be carried separately from the bulk material, not only to prevent them setting off a joint shipment, but also to prevent certain anti-social political groups waylaying one of the specialist soft-top trucks or railway wagons and making off with complete bomb-making kits.

On the Somerset levels a few hundred yards from the M5 motorway was the Royal Ordnance factory at Puriton. On most days as one passed along the motorway could be seen from one or two stacks a faint yellow smoke. This was from the cooking of picric acid, a component of many explosives. There were isolated incidents of this yellow acid leaking into the 'rhynes' (ditches) which ran through the site , but very little regulatory environmental response took place. The factory closed mainly because the land is barely 15ft above sea level, and the MoD did not want one of its principal resources being flooded in a repeat of the Somerset levels flood of 1607 - a decision which was validated by the Levels Floods of 2014 which took out many roads in the area for weeks.

Planning for a Puriton 'incident' or flood were hampered by the absence of Ordnance Survey detailed mapping of the area. Roads and a minor railway appeared to lead into the middle of a blank area, which can be seen (or rather, not seen) in historical OS maps . Incident exercises were carried out with marked maps, which had to be counted out at the beginning of the day, and again at the end.

I know little about WW2 explosives in munitions underwater for decades, but understand that casings will deteriorate or corrode, and it is likely that ROV sampling of the Montgomery vicinity will have revealed increasing traces of picrates and other material, which has led to the decision to reduce the masts and possibly recover other loose cargo.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I was involved in many of the plans for the transport of explosives through Somerset and lesser counties during the 1990s. The explosives were either for use in the quarries (mainly Mrs Yeoman's) or transit onwards to or from assorted military bases and stores in the SW.

It was normal practice for detonators to be carried separately from the bulk material, not only to prevent them setting off a joint shipment, but also to prevent certain anti-social political groups waylaying one of the specialist soft-top trucks or railway wagons and making off with complete bomb-making kits.

On the Somerset levels a few hundred yards from the M5 motorway was the Royal Ordnance factory at Puriton. On most days as one passed along the motorway could be seen from one or two stacks a faint yellow smoke. This was from the cooking of picric acid, a component of many explosives. There were isolated incidents of this yellow acid leaking into the 'rhynes' (ditches) which ran through the site , but very little regulatory environmental response took place. The factory closed mainly because the land is barely 15ft above sea level, and the MoD did not want one of its principal resources being flooded in a repeat of the Somerset levels flood of 1607 - a decision which was validated by the Levels Floods of 2014 which took out many roads in the area for weeks.

Planning for a Puriton 'incident' or flood were hampered by the absence of Ordnance Survey detailed mapping of the area. Roads and a minor railway appeared to lead into the middle of a blank area, which can be seen (or rather, not seen) in historical OS maps . Incident exercises were carried out with marked maps, which had to be counted out at the beginning of the day, and again at the end.

I know little about WW2 explosives in munitions underwater for decades, but understand that casings will deteriorate or corrode, and it is likely that ROV sampling of the Montgomery vicinity will have revealed increasing traces of picrates and other material, which has led to the decision to reduce the masts and possibly recover other loose cargo.

I found this that shows WW2 shells including some antipersonnel shells like the ones I saw diving. They have their fuses and detonators in place and I think most at those times would have been transported in that way to save time at the receiving end.

WW2 British Artillery Shells and Mortars – Colours and Markings

 

[oldgit]

OG has a iron cannon ball collected by beam trawl during the 1960s in Upnor Reach.
Good chance it was discharged the last time The Dutch visted Chatham Dockyard.

Dredged Up 23 2018.cdr - Wessex Archaeology
https://www.wessexarch.co.uk › files › field_file


PDF

 

[ean_p]

I found this that shows WW2 shells including some antipersonnel shells like the ones I saw diving. They have their fuses and detonators in place and I think most at those times would have been transported in that way to save time at the receiving end.

WW2 British Artillery Shells and Mortars – Colours and Markings

A resource like your link is what really makes the net a great thing. I never cease to be staggered by the amount and quality of info that can be found especially that brought together by enthusiasts. I used to dive the wrecks of the Yorkshire coast in the 90's and 00's and especially liked the couple of UC type U Boats that were accessable there. The subs were minelayers and dropped the mines from vertical inclined tubes in the fore deck area. Having found the UBoat web site brought a mine of info about the boats and crews even down to the build and contents of the remaining mines still in the wreckage. One at least ending up as a yellow lump on the seabed the case having corroded and dropped its contents of explosive etc. For the interested these sites are just manna from heaven.
Moving on and still in keeping with the thread, the coast, especially the east coast must be littered with munitions in wrecks. Without trying too hard I can remember several that had munitions of various quantities. Though I never dived it myself, as conditions had to be just right, there is a wreck a large wreck just off Flamboro' with holds carrying huge shells ( 1st WW) that are described as looking like a scene from a Sci Fi movie of some giant creatures lair filled with eggs! And that is just one amongst several as the head was a favoured hunting ground for the 1stWW sub captains.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

When I started diving in the 70s there wasn't much by 82 I had become seriously interested in wrecks on the South and Cornish coasts and bought a RIB fitted it out with a paper recording depth sounder and a Decca recorder later converted to GPS and very soon after a magnetometer. I photocopied several hundred pages of the British hydrographers wrecks catalogues and spent the winters finding likely targets in the 50 to 60M region ( we used to dive off the old Navy Deep Air tables.) We found some interesting wrecks a lot of which were known to the hard boat skippers of the time but rarely dived. I also found the Apapa off Anglesey and dived it several times a fairly hairy dive, in order to get to know the wreck I bought a set of her build plans from Harland and Wolff, for a long time I had one of them framed hanging in my office at work. The internet no doubt makes it easier now and there seems to be a lot more information easily available and with the advent of mixed gas diving into the amateur market depths are now 100 M and more opening up the field as it were.
Location was time consuming first we got to as close as we could using Decca and then the first uncorrected GPS, drop a shot line and circle or do a straight line grid search with magnetometer and then echo sounder we perfected the technique in locating the James Eagan Layne several miles out in Mounts Bay at 60M then almost never dived but now apparently a popular site. I remember swimming over a line of toilets and seeing one arm of the flying bridge angled upwards which had collapsed the following year when I spent 10 dives over two weeks removing a big brass port light and cover.
Interesting times.

 

[LittleSister]

I would hope the cargo manifest would list type of explosive, manufacturers and type of detonator, but in the chaos of a war such information might be gappy

There will be a full manifest held by MARCOM or whatever they're called these days; she loaded in Philadelphia and was due to unload in Cherbourg.

I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading some time ago that the original cargo manifest was incomplete or otherwise unreliable, and the resulting uncertainty added significant complication to addressing the problem of the wreck.

 

[mjcoon]

Planning for a Puriton 'incident' or flood were hampered by the absence of Ordnance Survey detailed mapping of the area. Roads and a minor railway appeared to lead into the middle of a blank area, which can be seen (or rather, not seen) in historical OS maps . Incident exercises were carried out with marked maps, which had to be counted out at the beginning of the day, and again at the end.

Amusing to have a lack of OS data on an OS site, but I suppose the surveying is essentially of target areas...