Spanish Government trying to interfere with other nations' boat safety regulations

[Dingbull]

I would hazard a guess it might have something to do with the amount of Spanish citizens who have their boats registered in other EU states such as Belgium.
Clearly an attempt to avoid the fairly strict regulations imposed here.

I feel you are right, but we should take two points into account:

- If the Spanish boating legislation was ever applied in the UK a lot of boat owners would for sure make themselves heard. AFAIK, the Spanish regulations are by far the toughest in the EU. Has this produced increased levels in boat safety in Spain compared to other EU countries? The answer seems to be no.

- If there have been Spaniards who have changed their boats' flag it is because two countries have allowed it. I would say that that they are not trying to evade taxes nor cutting costs in safety, but they seem to go for a more rational set of rules.

In any case, this phenomenon of massive flag changing is unheard of in other countries. Perhaps we should wonder why...

 

[Raw]

We have recreational craft use, domestic regulations in the UK, MGN 538. This applies to all UK pleasure vessels wherever they may be and for some of the regulations to non - UK pleasure vessels in UK waters.

 

[Dingbull]

We have recreational craft use, domestic regulations in the UK, MGN 538. This applies to all UK pleasure vessels wherever they may be and for some of the regulations to non - UK pleasure vessels in UK waters.

There's no point in comparing MGN 538 with the Spanish Orden. MGN 538 is aimed at giving advice and guidance, whereas the Orden is aimed at enforcing a very strict regulation, fines included.

 

[Raw]

MGN 538 allows recreational vessels (class XII vessels) an exemption from various Merchant Shipping Act regulations that do apply, if you follow the MGN. Whilst there is guidance there is also the statutory regulations applicable to recreational craft. Whether or not they are enforced is a different question.

 

[dragonvc]

I feel you are right, but we should take two points into account:

- If the Spanish boating legislation was ever applied in the UK a lot of boat owners would for sure make themselves heard. AFAIK, the Spanish regulations are by far the toughest in the EU. Has this produced increased levels in boat safety in Spain compared to other EU countries? The answer seems to be no.

- If there have been Spaniards who have changed their boats' flag it is because two countries have allowed it. I would say that that they are not trying to evade taxes nor cutting costs in safety, but they seem to go for a more rational set of rules.

In any case, this phenomenon of massive flag changing is unheard of in other countries. Perhaps we should wonder why...

 

[Graham376]

In any case, this phenomenon of massive flag changing is unheard of in other countries. Perhaps we should wonder why...

We have Portuguese friends sailing under Belgian, German, Dutch and UK flags to avoid regulation and taxes. Also meet plenty of Italians not under their own flag to evade tax, as well as Soviets in large power boats often UK registered.

 

[Tranona]

Well, it is illegal from the very moment there is a Law of higher order which says otherwise. In this case, the Spanish Civil Code clearly states that ships, aircraft and means of transport by railroad are under the regulations of the state flag, or the place of matriculation or registry. A straightforward application of what is called "principle of the hierarchy of norms", commonplace within the legal community, leads to the conclusion that any such regulation is illegal ad limine litis.

I think the Spanish Government are shooting themselves in the foot with this. But this is my own opinion, of course.

In your original post you claimed that it was contrary to "International and EU law". now it seems you are saying something different.

Seems to me that although this new proposal may be different from the existing law, is that not always the case that a new law may change an existing law.

So we are back to your opinion that the Spanish government has "gone too far", not that it does not have the right to impose these rules on all boats in its territorial waters, or that the rules are unnecessary and unreasonable. I happen to agree with that, but would not like to see the EU get involved as they would almost certainly come up with a set of rules somewhere between Spain and the UK that nobody was happy with!

 

[[163233]]

In any case, this phenomenon of massive flag changing is unheard of in other countries.

Really? There seem to be an impressive array of Bahamian ships plying the Norway-UK route.

 

[RobF]

Really? There seem to be an impressive array of Bahamian ships plying the Norway-UK route.

Quite, Flags of convenience tend to be pretty commonplace nowadays.

It does seem a bit odd to heavily regulate the boats and then have lobster pots which are poorly marked and in obvious shipping lanes. Maybe the Spanish should legislate for mandatory prop rope cutters.

 

[Uricanejack]

What was that old saying, When in Rome?

The Spanish laws may seem a bit OTP to some of us but they appear to apply to Spaniards and Spanish residents.
What's the big deal? If you live in Spain surly compiling with Spanish law is only reasonable.

 

[Tranona]

What was that old saying, When in Rome?

The Spanish laws may seem a bit OTP to some of us but they appear to apply to Spaniards and Spanish residents.
What's the big deal? If you live in Spain surly compiling with Spanish law is only reasonable.

Not reasonable for the many thousands of non Spaniard boat owners who live in Spain and are a significant part of their economy and particularly when there is no reliable evidence that their rules lead to a safer boating environment, only to massive avoidance wherever possible. Hence the large number of Spaniards who ignore the rules or flag their boats elsewhere (often illegally). A sensible government might ask the question as to why it is so out of step with the rest of Europe, but of course there are many vested interests in maintaining the status quo.

 

[Uricanejack]

Not reasonable for the many thousands of non Spaniard boat owners who live in Spain and are a significant part of their economy and particularly when there is no reliable evidence that their rules lead to a safer boating environment, only to massive avoidance wherever possible. Hence the large number of Spaniards who ignore the rules or flag their boats elsewhere (often illegally). A sensible government might ask the question as to why it is so out of step with the rest of Europe, but of course there are many vested interests in maintaining the status quo.

I guess I am missing the point.

The Laws of Spain are up to the Spanish to decide. I may or may not consider them reasonable. Still its none of my business. If I choose to pass thorough Spain as a tourist. I would expect I have to conform to Spanish Law. Even so as a visitor perhaps from the UK with one of those weird right hand drive cars. They allow you to visit and sit on the wrong side of the car while you drive on the right side of the road. I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect you to change it for a right hand drive car if you decide to live there.

Looks like it will still be the same with boats. If I chose to Sail through Spain or Portugal, Stopping in Spain, The Canaries or the Azores. It will still be OK.

So what's the problem? To many Spanish residents are choosing to avoid Spanish regulations by flagging their boats in other countries. And keeping the boats in Spain. I can see why the Spanish regulators are not pleased.
The point here is the changes are proposed changes. So I imagine as a reportedly democratic country Spain has an internal system of reviewing proposed changes to Spanish Law. Which allow Spanish citizens if not all residents have impute.

I would imagine those British, German Dutch or even Belgian boat owners who choose to own a boat it a Croatian Greek or Turkish charter fleet. Accept the boats have to comply with. Croatian, Greek or Turkish regulations.

The other possible problem. Is inconsistent regulations throughout Europe. Which could be resolved by making them all the same. Which is probably very unlikely to happen. So Spain is enacting a Solution it can control.

Its a bit like going to live in Spain and complaining about the lack of fish and chip shops.

 

[Graham376]

Its a bit like going to live in Spain and complaining about the lack of fish and chip shops.

Doubt there will be any complaints about that. Sounds like you've not been to some of the popular Spanish (horrible) tourist resorts with "all day breakfast" "fish & chips" and Taffy's Bar"?

 

[Tranona]

I guess I am missing the point.

Yes, you are missing the point. The two main reasons for objecting to this move are first it is out of step with just about every other country in the world, particularly in Europe, where although each state has a right to impose its own laws on foreign boats they choose not to do so. This is partly for historic reasons and partly because of the difficulty of enforcing it.

For the second reason you need to consider the history. Between the mid 1930s and up to the 1980s Spain was ruled by a repressive dictatorship which imposed all sorts of unrealistic (by the standards of the rest of Europe) laws on its citizens. These laws are products of this time and are designed to control citizens and favour those who had interests to protect, ranging from state employees who have jobs to protect to commercial and professional organisations who profit from selling equipment, training sailors to meet the tests, assessing boats to tick the periodic boxes and so on.

At the same time as limiting their own citizens they have created a welcoming environment for visitors and ex pat residents as they provide huge economic benefits to the country. So there is an element of biting the hand that feeds it as well as resentment from the local population who have so little influence on law making. You can see this by the mass migration of the young and economically active to other states in Europe - hardly surprising with over 30% youth unemployment until recently. This Spanish diaspora creates the conditions for flagging of Spanish owned yachts in other states to avoid the unnecessary restrictions from being on the Spanish register.

So, not the simplistic situation you assume exists, and there is not an easy answer. Some will say, as on this thread that an answer is to create the same standards throughout Europe, but as we have seen the EU is not very good at doing this, and also individual states are very resistant when there are entrenched interests involved.

So, the current system where each state is individually responsible for rules affecting boats based in the state or owned by a citizen and respected by other states is the least worst. It is easy to police as registration of the boat determines the law that governs it. There is little evidence that any of the more restricted states are "safer" than those with more limited requirements - so why change a system that works?

 

[Wansworth]

Before using a recreational boat no matter how small read Don Quijote and Franz Kafka “The Castle” unless you are actually Spanish.

 

[Gunfleet]

Hello,
it's the article 52 of this law
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000032728685&dateTexte=20160621

if the direct link works:
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/eli/loi/2016/6/20/2016-816/jo/article_52

("Véhicules nautiques à moteur" is legalese for jetskis.)

La section 1 du chapitre Ier du titre IV du livre II de la cinquième partie du code des transports est complétée par un article L. 5241-1-1ainsi rédigé :

« Art. L. 5241-1-1.-Quel que soit leur pavillon, les navires de plaisance et les véhicules nautiques à moteur appartenant à des personnes physiques ou morales ayant leur résidence principale ou leur siège social en France ainsi que les navires de plaisance et les véhicules nautiques à moteur dont ces personnes ont la jouissance sont soumis, dans les eaux territoriales françaises, à l'ensemble des règles relatives aux titres de conduite des navires et au matériel d'armement et de sécurité applicables à bord des navires de plaisance et des véhicules nautiques à moteur battant pavillon français. »

That says people having their principal residence or companies having their registered address in France must operate their boats in French waters under French rules, including safety equipment 'materiel d'armament' (equipment furnished) and with French entitlement/permit to 'drive'. They can be spikey about this sort of stuff and when I lived there I knew a British resident who was briefly arrested for driving a French car she owned on a British driving licence. The rule didn't apply to hires or non residents for obvious reasons. The rule you quote ( a new one on me but it's a long time since I was resident there) just looks like an attempt to apply the same thinking to yachts and pleasure craft. Maybe someone with deep pockets would win a court case years down the track, but that's not much help when you're in conversation with a gendarme maritime. We are not beyond asserting our rights in Britain too, as Mr Abramovitch appears to have discovered

 

[Uricanejack]

Yes, you are missing the point. The two main reasons for objecting to this move are first it is out of step with just about every other country in the world, particularly in Europe, where although each state has a right to impose its own laws on foreign boats they choose not to do so. This is partly for historic reasons and partly because of the difficulty of enforcing it.

For the second reason you need to consider the history. Between the mid 1930s and up to the 1980s Spain was ruled by a repressive dictatorship which imposed all sorts of unrealistic (by the standards of the rest of Europe) laws on its citizens. These laws are products of this time and are designed to control citizens and favour those who had interests to protect, ranging from state employees who have jobs to protect to commercial and professional organisations who profit from selling equipment, training sailors to meet the tests, assessing boats to tick the periodic boxes and so on.

At the same time as limiting their own citizens they have created a welcoming environment for visitors and ex pat residents as they provide huge economic benefits to the country. So there is an element of biting the hand that feeds it as well as resentment from the local population who have so little influence on law making. You can see this by the mass migration of the young and economically active to other states in Europe - hardly surprising with over 30% youth unemployment until recently. This Spanish diaspora creates the conditions for flagging of Spanish owned yachts in other states to avoid the unnecessary restrictions from being on the Spanish register.

So, not the simplistic situation you assume exists, and there is not an easy answer. Some will say, as on this thread that an answer is to create the same standards throughout Europe, but as we have seen the EU is not very good at doing this, and also individual states are very resistant when there are entrenched interests involved.

So, the current system where each state is individually responsible for rules affecting boats based in the state or owned by a citizen and respected by other states is the least worst. It is easy to police as registration of the boat determines the law that governs it. There is little evidence that any of the more restricted states are "safer" than those with more limited requirements - so why change a system that works?

I am not familiar with Spain and its political system beyond a brief summation. Franco some how left his position as Head of State to King Juan Carlos as a constitutional Monarchy. There is a democratic Government. How similar or not it is to the UK. I don't know.
Not sure is a Democratic government a requirement for EEC.

So perhaps naively. I thought the Franco and the past was history. Perhaps not quite as decisively, in the past as his two big supporters.

Others have posted the French have some pretty tough rules of their own. So its not just Spain.

I don't really have an opinion about the Spanish regulations are. I don't live there. I don't have a boat there. But If I did I don't see why it would be a problem to comply with the local rules. If it was a problem why stay?

 

[macd]

Not sure is a Democratic government a requirement for EEC.

Democratic government is enshrined in EU treaties although, as brexiteers will happily tell you, some of the EU's own institutions are less democratic than they would like. Sanctions are available against member states which breach these obligations, although to the best of my knowledge they have never been imposed and in the world of Realpolitik it's difficult to do so. Poland's recent politicization of the relationship between government and judiciary is a well-publicised case in point. Hungary's lurch to the right also worries Brussels in similar ways.
(The EEC became the EU 25 years ago.)

 

[Tranona]

Others have posted the French have some pretty tough rules of their own. So its not just Spain.

I don't really have an opinion about the Spanish regulations are. I don't live there. I don't have a boat there. But If I did I don't see why it would be a problem to comply with the local rules. If it was a problem why stay?

The latest French rules are nowhere near as onerous as the Spanish and affect a relatively small number of people. Spain has a huge ex pat population, both people and boats. So not surprising there would be resistance to such a major change in the law. better to try and resist it than try to change it once it is done. Without going into the complexities of Spanish politics, regions have a great deal of autonomy (look at the current Catalonia issue) so enforcement is hugely variable across the country. However the authoritarian national government can be pretty brutal in enforcing the national constitution - again look at Catalonia.

 

[Uricanejack]

The latest French rules are nowhere near as onerous as the Spanish and affect a relatively small number of people. Spain has a huge ex pat population, both people and boats. So not surprising there would be resistance to such a major change in the law. better to try and resist it than try to change it once it is done. Without going into the complexities of Spanish politics, regions have a great deal of autonomy (look at the current Catalonia issue) so enforcement is hugely variable across the country. However the authoritarian national government can be pretty brutal in enforcing the national constitution - again look at Catalonia.

I have no idea how Spain enacts laws.
I have taken a small part in the consultation stage here. The Government informs us the are going to make regulatory changes. Then have a public consultation phase. The current popular word is stakeholders. Get to show up public meetings and working at working groups regionally and Nationally.
During this process different groups have a chance to express their opinions and influence the direction of changes. This is a time where change can be made.
It usually comes back as a draft proposal prior to being gazetted. Once gazetted it goes to parliament.
So I suppose it depends how. Spain allows for interested parties to comment on proposed changes and how far along the process the proposed change is.