Spain now requires mandatory competency tickets for foreign yachts.

Davy_S said:
In the OP original post, no one was talking about hiring or chartering, or owning a boat in Spain, mainly about passing through or visiting a safe refuge, I see it as no proof of competence is needed. In Greece to charter as in Spain, I can understand them asking for proof of competence, I have no problem with that. I have proof of competence in Mobo to 24 mtr and yacht/sail to 24 mtr, so I have no axe to grind. The view of some here that a boy scout ICC will do, is unbelievable, there is a difference between power and sail that no one has mentioned!
A punter can hire in the French canals, but an owner needs a CEVNI.
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If you visit a safe refuge in any circumstances other than force of weather or equipment failure (and even then, it must be such that it would be unsafe to remain at sea, not merely uncomfortable), then you are not on "innocent passage". It literally ONLY applies to a voyage starting and ending outside a particular nation's jurisdiction. A voyage where your destination is a harbour or anchorage (of any kind) within territorial waters is nor "innocent passage" under any interpretation.
 
KellysEye said:
>[Me] You can't copy text and paste a link on this forum, one of the reasons I use bit.ly

You can copy any URL or text using Ctrl C to copy and Ctrl V to paste.
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You can't if the link is truncated. You have to open the link and copy that, or use right click. The link I referred to was broken because it was copied as text.

Has anyone got a decent translation?
 
I have been reading this thread for personal interest as I am about to move a small sailboat (28ft) from Sweden to the Med and Spain may be a destination in some ports I may have to stop.

The curiosity I have is that by reading the spanish decree reported (and dissected) in previous pages, I understand from reading it in spanish (a language I speak) that the rule adopted to decide which license you must hold depends on the nationality (passport) of the skipper, or upon is residence address if different from the passport.

I report it here to refresh memory:

Disposición adicional quinta. Exigencia de titulación para el gobierno de embarcaciones de recreo abanderadas en otros Estados.
1. Toda persona que gobierne una embarcación de recreo, abanderada en otros Estados, que navegue por aguas en las que España ejerza soberanía, derechos soberanos o jurisdicción deberá estar en posesión de una titulación que le habilite para realizar dicha navegación.
2. A los efectos previstos en el apartado anterior la titulación exigible, en aquellos casos en los que la nacionalidad del patrón coincida con la del pabellón de la embarcación, será la requerida de acuerdo con la legislación del país de nacionalidad del patrón; y para los casos en los que no coincidan ambas nacionalidades la titulación será aquella requerida por la legislación del país de residencia del patrón o en su defecto, la de su nacionalidad.

IN ENGLISH:

Requirement of qualifications for the control of yachts with flags from other states.
Everyone who sails a yacht with a foreign flag and sails in waters where Spain exercises sovereignty, sovereign rights or jurisdiction must be in possession of a qualification which allows them to carry out the mentioned sailing activity.
With reference to the previous paragraph the qualification which is required, in those cases where the nationality of the skipper coincides with the nationality of the vessel’s flag, shall be that which is required according to the legislation of the country where the skipper has nationality; and in those cases where the two nationalities do not coincide it will be the the legislation of the skipper’s country of residence, or if that does not exist, the legislation of his nationality.


Example: a french passport holder that works in Germany permanently and has a german address will be asked by the spanish authorities to have the licenses required by his nation to skipper his eu-flagged vessel (i.e. flag does not matter).

Another example: an italian passport holder skipper will be asked to show the license required by his nation to skipper his eu-flagged vessel (i.e. flag does not matter). For example Italy does NOT require any license for vessels less than 12 meters with an engine less than 40.8HP.

Would you say this mean an italian skipper can sail such a boat in Spain without any license?
 
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There was a report in the spanish press a couple of years ago about a police raid on an exam. for the Spanish 'Boat Handlers licence', being held somewhere on one of the costas. In the class of 20 odd candidates, a couple were genuine, about seven were being 'impersonated' by a stand-in, and the rest were being coached from outside the room by means of a radio receiver with an earphone!
It is perhaps interesting to know that the local authorities do not accept any qualification other than their own exam. for Spanish citizens.
 
prv said:
That principle (intended really for merchant ships) exists, but only so long as you're just passing through on passage. Once you start calling into ports, you're subject to their law. Most countries have tended not to place many requirements on foreign vessels, but they have the right to if they want to and it seems that Spain has now exercised that right. Pete
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true but they are legally obliged to recognise other countries qualifications and licencing systems. The UK doesnt licence boats so the Spanish have no right to demand that we do.

If you want to argue with their plod that is.:D
 
birdseye said:
true but they are legally obliged to recognise other countries qualifications and licencing systems. The UK doesnt licence boats so the Spanish have no right to demand that we do.

If you want to argue with their plod that is.:D
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Once again this is not correct. There is no legal obligation to recognise qualifications from other states unless they meet (as in the case of commercial qualifications) agreed international standards. States can demand any qualification they like within their own waters, although in practice very few do for leisure sailors. The only certificate for leisure boaters that has any recognition as "international" is the ICC and that is fairly limited as few states have formally signed up to it, although some non signatories do also accept it.
 
Esteemed forumites, I am not sure what you said above matches what the Spanish law says.

Disposición adicional quinta. Exigencia de titulación para el gobierno de embarcaciones de recreo abanderadas en otros Estados. [that is not a commercial vessel, is a recreational vessel]
1. Toda persona que gobierne una embarcación de recreo, abanderada en otros Estados, que navegue por aguas en las que España ejerza soberanía, derechos soberanos o jurisdicción deberá estar en posesión de una titulación que le habilite para realizar dicha navegación.
2. A los efectos previstos en el apartado anterior la titulación exigible, en aquellos casos en los que la nacionalidad del patrón coincida con la del pabellón de la embarcación, será la requerida de acuerdo con la legislación del país de nacionalidad del patrón; y para los casos en los que no coincidan ambas nacionalidades la titulación será aquella requerida por la legislación del país de residencia del patrón o en su defecto, la de su nacionalidad.
[this means that they require the license that is in vogue in the country of your nationality/passport, regardless vessel flag and regardless your residence place]

So, if you are swiss, you need a license, if you are italian or swedish, you do not need a license because THERE IS NO LICENSE for small vessels in these countries, and if you are french... I don't know!
it's not a joke, it's what the spanish law above says.
then if spanish officials bend the law and pretend a license anyway, I have no idea, but the bit above is pretty clear also for non-lawyers.
 
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Cool Guy said:
Thanks for the more recent link. Scanning through it I find the following:

Artículo 4. Habilitaciones de los títulos.
1. Los títulos reconocidos en este real decreto habilitan, de acuerdo con los requisitos y las excepciones previstas en este real decreto, para el gobierno de las embarcaciones de recreo y de las motos náuticas abanderadas o registradas y matriculadas en España, que sean utilizadas exclusivamente para actividades de recreo.

Roughly translated: 1. The certificates recognised in this royal decree permit, in accordance with the requisites and exceptions contained in this royal decree, the control of yachts and jet skis with Spanish flags or registered in Spain, which may be used exclusively for pleasure activities.

Further through this long decree I find the following:

Disposición adicional quinta. Exigencia de titulación para el gobierno de embarcaciones de recreo abanderadas en otros Estados.
1. Toda persona que gobierne una embarcación de recreo, abanderada en otros Estados, que navegue por aguas en las que España ejerza soberanía, derechos soberanos o jurisdicción deberá estar en posesión de una titulación que le habilite para realizar dicha navegación.
2. A los efectos previstos en el apartado anterior la titulación exigible, en aquellos casos en los que la nacionalidad del patrón coincida con la del pabellón de la embarcación, será la requerida de acuerdo con la legislación del país de nacionalidad del patrón; y para los casos en los que no coincidan ambas nacionalidades la titulación será aquella requerida por la legislación del país de residencia del patrón o en su defecto, la de su nacionalidad.

Again, roughly translated:

Requirement of qualifications for the control of yachts with flags from other states.
Everyone who sails a yacht with a foreign flag and sails in waters where Spain exercises sovereignty, sovereign rights or jurisdiction must be in possession of a qualification which allows them to carry out the mentioned sailing activity.
With reference to the previous paragraph the qualification which is required, in those cases where the nationality of the skipper coincides with the nationality of the vessel’s flag, shall be that which is required according to the legislation of the country where the skipper has nationality; and in those cases where the two nationalities do not coincide it will be the the legislation of the skipper’s country of residence, or if that does not exist, the legislation of his nationality.

The decree runs to 120 pages, but I think it's clear that if you sail a Spanish-flagged yacht - as I did for several years - you need a Spanish qualification or its British equivalent (if you are British) as listed in previous posts. If you sail a British-flagged yacht, you need a qualification which matches British legislation. Since British legislation does not envisage qualifications related to size of yachts and distance from the coast, I would imagine that the ICC is sufficient - as I think has always been suggested by the RYA.

As you may appreciate from the 120-page decree regulating yachting qualifications in Spain, the degree of legislation makes for a very different sailing environment. The relative lack of regulation in UK yachting allows us a freedom to practise our sport which we should defend tooth and nail. Not only are Spanish yachtsmen obliged to go through lengthy and expensive training courses, but also to maintain and equip their boats according to government regulations including for example annual revision of life-rafts, possession of two radio aerials in case they are dismasted etc. Also, Spanish-flagged boats have to pass expensive 5-yearly inspections and sailing licences have to be renewed every ten years.
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If your translation is accurate.

The way it is worded. Even the hot bloodied Spanish are being quite reasonable. While they are clearly suggesting all vessels have appropriately qualified crews. All they are doing is leaving it up to the flag state to determine the required level of qualification. Which is quite polite and in keeping with most maritime countries.
A British Sailor on a British Registered yacht which sails to Spain for a visit. Has to comply with British requirements. Not Spanish requirements.
The British do not require any certificates, RYA, ICC or MCC. Therefore no requirement. and no need to panic.
I suspect the locals will be more polite when you arrive if you have some kind of piece of official looking paper to show them. Even if its not required.
 
sailorman said:
1/ the boat is UK registered & part of England unlike yoyr car
2/ anybody can hire a boat in France with NO ICC
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No 1 is a Myth. and completely wrong.

A boat or ship on the "High Seas" is subject to the laws of its flag state. it is not part of the flag state.
When the Boat or Ship enters the territorial waters of another state. It becomes fully subject to the laws of the state who's waters it is in. Even when just passing through.
Only a vessel on a diplomatic visit would be considered part of Britain.

War Ships are different. They have guns. Status depends on the terms of the visit.

Point 2 who Knows, :)
 
Voyager 5 said:
So, if you are swiss, you need a license, if you are italian or swedish, you do not need a license because THERE IS NO LICENSE for small vessels in these countries, and if you are french... I don't know!
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France has no licences for sea going leisure sailing boats. There are licences instead for power boats.
In Italy, there are licensing requirements which depend upon size of sailing vessel and distance from the coast: small boat (<10m) at <6nm from the coast no licence; boat >10m at <6nm from the coast one type of licence; boat >10m at >6nm from the coast another type of licence. A small sailboat (<10m) is officially not allowed to go beyond 6nm from the coast. There used to be two further categories (sail licences and power licences), but they have been unified.

regards
r
 
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Uricanejack said:
I suspect the locals will be more polite when you arrive if you have some kind of piece of official looking paper to show them. Even if its not required.
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Correct. Some officials have their own interpretation of what is required and can make life difficult if paperwork isn't produced, even if they can't understand what it says, Wax seals and bits of ribbon work best:).
 
Voyager 5 said:
I have been reading this thread for personal interest as I am about to move a small sailboat (28ft) from Sweden to the Med and Spain may be a destination in some ports I may have to stop.

The curiosity I have is that by reading the spanish decree reported (and dissected) in previous pages, I understand from reading it in spanish (a language I speak) that the rule adopted to decide which license you must hold depends on the nationality (passport) of the skipper, or upon is residence address if different from the passport.

I report it here to refresh memory:

Disposición adicional quinta. Exigencia de titulación para el gobierno de embarcaciones de recreo abanderadas en otros Estados.
1. Toda persona que gobierne una embarcación de recreo, abanderada en otros Estados, que navegue por aguas en las que España ejerza soberanía, derechos soberanos o jurisdicción deberá estar en posesión de una titulación que le habilite para realizar dicha navegación.
2. A los efectos previstos en el apartado anterior la titulación exigible, en aquellos casos en los que la nacionalidad del patrón coincida con la del pabellón de la embarcación, será la requerida de acuerdo con la legislación del país de nacionalidad del patrón; y para los casos en los que no coincidan ambas nacionalidades la titulación será aquella requerida por la legislación del país de residencia del patrón o en su defecto, la de su nacionalidad.

IN ENGLISH:

Requirement of qualifications for the control of yachts with flags from other states.
Everyone who sails a yacht with a foreign flag and sails in waters where Spain exercises sovereignty, sovereign rights or jurisdiction must be in possession of a qualification which allows them to carry out the mentioned sailing activity.
With reference to the previous paragraph the qualification which is required, in those cases where the nationality of the skipper coincides with the nationality of the vessel’s flag, shall be that which is required according to the legislation of the country where the skipper has nationality; and in those cases where the two nationalities do not coincide it will be the the legislation of the skipper’s country of residence, or if that does not exist, the legislation of his nationality.


Example: a french passport holder that works in Germany permanently and has a german address will be asked by the spanish authorities to have the licenses required by his nation to skipper his eu-flagged vessel (i.e. flag does not matter).

Another example: an italian passport holder skipper will be asked to show the license required by his nation to skipper his eu-flagged vessel (i.e. flag does not matter). For example Italy does NOT require any license for vessels less than 12 meters with an engine less than 40.8HP.

Would you say this mean an italian skipper can sail such a boat in Spain without any license?
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No.

You are adding an additional level of complication here which would be quite unusual. The Spanish appear to be very understanding.

First most flag states require their own Flag state certification. Some accept certain others as equivalent, Even then most will issue one of their own.
Pleasure vessels are a bit more complicated, Because until recently most didn't require anything.

The way I read it. If you are on a Spanish Boat it does not matter where the heck you are from or where you are. you require a Spanish certificate. They will accept others and have a list. This is a country being very polite to foreigners.
It also avoids complicating their tourist industry.

The odd situation will occur when a Sailor of one nationality has a boat from another. They are allowing some flexibility because pleasure boat sailing, is flexible. They are simply being reasonable. They are not going to quibble about an Italian on a French boat or a German on a Greek boat as long as they have a certificate for their nationality or place of residence.

I would doubt there tolerance extends to allowing skippers of boats from flag states requiring certificates to use the Skippers nationality or residence to avoid having any certification.

I would suspect, a French, German or Italian dude on a British boat would have a tough time convincing a Spanish Harbor Master he did not require a certificate unless he also had a British passport. A Spanish dude would probably be SOL even with a British Passport.

If you are British on a boat with a Flag which has a certificate requirement, best bet is to have one. Even a British one will do.
 
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Uricanejack said:
No.
I would suspect, a French, German or Italian dude on a British boat would have a tough time convincing a Spanish Harbor Master he did not require a certificate unless he also had a British passport.
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Well, but that is what the spanish law says in that bit I have highlighted above. It says that when the skipper nationality is different from vessel flag, they look at nationality and apply the rules of the country the skipper comes from.
Hence an italian needing no license for certain boat sizes is allowed to drive a boat with no license in Spain.

I cannot say for sure this is what will happen once you meet spanish officers, but what they wrote in spanish is pretty clear.
 
Voyager 5 said:
Well, but that is what the spanish law says in that bit I have highlighted above. It says that when the skipper nationality is different from vessel flag, they look at nationality and apply the rules of the country the skipper comes from.
Hence an italian needing no license for certain boat sizes is allowed to drive a boat with no license in Spain.

I cannot say for sure this is what will happen once you meet spanish officers, but what they wrote in spanish is pretty clear.
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It is written that way so the Spanish themselves cannot wiggle out of the requirement for certification just by registering their boat offshore.
 
Voyager 5 said:
Well, but that is what the spanish law says in that bit I have highlighted above. It says that when the skipper nationality is different from vessel flag, they look at nationality and apply the rules of the country the skipper comes from.
Hence an italian needing no license for certain boat sizes is allowed to drive a boat with no license in Spain.

I cannot say for sure this is what will happen once you meet spanish officers, but what they wrote in spanish is pretty clear.
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Voyager - welcome to this forum. But don't expect that quoting the text of the relevant legislation, and providing an accurate translation, will cut much ice with many opinions on the forum. Facts get in the way of opinions :)

I think you have made the formal position clear - though equally some good points made here that carrying any certificates held might avoid wasting time if the local bureaucrats don't understand their own legislation
 
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