Spain now requires mandatory competency tickets for foreign yachts.

Davy_S said:
I really would doubt this, yachtsmen have had the right to sail in international waters, on passage without any problems if they are a UK registered vessel. When it comes to permanently mooring or chartering in Spain I would imagine it could become compulsory for some sort of qualification being necessary. But innocent UK yachts on passage I would doubt it.
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"Innocent passage" means exactly what it says; passage THROUGH territorial waters. A passage that starts or ends at a harbour or anchorage in territorial water is not "innocent passage", and is subject to the rules the nation concerned chooses to apply. The only exception is in the case of seeking shelter under pressure of weather or equipment failure; it does not apply (AFAIR) to adverse tides (which are entirely predictable).

Note also that there several categories of territorial water, and one of them (internal waters) is totally covered by national legislation, exactly as if it were land, with no exception for innocent passage. As internal waters are all water within the baseline of a country (basically, a line joining each prominent headland or offshore island), that covers the vast majority of cruising grounds. For example, for the UK it includes ALL the waters between the Outer Hebrides and the mainland. By definition it incorporates any water sufficiently sheltered to be a harbour or safe anchorage.
 
ripvan1 said:
No restriction on miles from shore with ICC - strange - that's if I'm reading "alejarse" correctly


COASTAL SKIPPER
Embarcaciones de hasta 24 m. de eslora, sin
alejarse más de 20 millas de la costa.
YATCHMASTER OFFSHORE
Embarcaciones de hasta 24 m. de eslora, sin
alejarse más de 150 millas de la costa.
YATCHMASTER OFFSHORE with
commercial endorsement
Embarcaciones de hasta 200 toneladas
brutas, sin alejarse más de 150 millas de la
costa.
YACHTMASTER OCEAN
Embarcaciones de hasta 24 m. de eslora, sin
limitaciones.
YACHTMASTER OCEAN with
commercial endorsement
Embarcaciones de hasta 200 toneladas
brutas, sin limitaciones.
GRAN
BRETAÑA
RYA (Royal
Yachting
Association)
INTERNATIONAL CERTIFICATE FOR
OPERATOR OF PLEASURE CRAFT
Embarcaciones de hasta 24 m. de eslor
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The legislation this appears to be quoted from looks as if it is from the Boletin Oficial del Estado of 27th January 2012 - see http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2012/01/27/pdfs/BOE-A-2012-1297.pdf - and comes from a list of certificates from all countries in the EU which will be accepted by the 'Dirección General de Marina Mercante' as equivalents to Spanish sailing certificates. In the case that someone wants or requires a Spanish sailing certificate, e.g. they are going to sail in a Spanish-flagged vessel in Spanish waters, they can show e.g. a Yachtmaster's certificate and be given the Spanish equivalent. It does not state that owners of foreign-flagged yachts need to possess these certificates.

See text below:
Títulos expedidos por otros Estados
Serán admitidos por la Dirección General de la Marina Mercante las titulaciones para el gobierno de
embarcaciones de recreo emitidas por aquellos Estados miembros de la Unión Europea o del Espacio Económico
Europeo, además de los que figuran en el siguiente cuadro.
La persona que esté en posesión de un título para el gobierno de embarcaciones de recreo emitido por un
Estado miembro de la Unión Europea, del Espacio Económico Europeo o por uno de los incluidos en el siguiente
cuadro, deberá demostrar su residencia en el Estado expedidor del título en el momento de la expedición, si su
nacionalidad difiere con la de dicho Estado expedidor.

I have to say that I have been sailing for many years in Spanish waters with both British and Spanish qualifications and I have never been asked for any certificate of competence ever.
 
laika said:
I'm unaware of this particular and presumably idiomatic use of the term "nose-breather". Is there anything inherently unseamanlike about breathing through one's nose? I confess to using a combination of nose and mouth breathing as circumstances and inclination dictates. Is that wrong?

Also...unfamiliar with "sperlashing". Is that one of those deliberately-misspelt-so-as-to-seem-more-salty contractions of "spar lashing"?

*EDIT: Has this confession messed up any chances I might have had of joining the Royal Sussex?
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Nose Breather: An infant still on the breast has to breath through it's nose, lest it suffocate.
Sperlash: The noise one makes when falling in.
Royal Sussex: But of course you cannot join. Nobody can 'cos royalness wuz refuzed as we's too parochial an' bucolic down 'ere... langfirst ádríege sé hwearfunge!

(Apologies to all and sundry for explaining joke; Evidently insufficiently humorous.)
 
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SAPurdie said:
Nose Breather: An infant still on the breast has to breath through it's nose, lest it suffocate.
Sperlash: The noise one makes when falling in.
Royal Sussex: But of course you cannot join. Nobody can 'cos royalness wuz refuzed as we's too parochial an' bucolic down 'ere... langfirst ádríege sé hwearfunge!

(Apologies to all and sundry for explaining joke; Evidently insufficiently humorous.)
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No No. Sufficiently humorous. I just seem to have committed several linguistic fails. The first idiom I was simply flat-out unaware of. The second I was mistaken in looking for more saltiness than onomatopoeia. And what can I say about the last one except that I'm relatively new to these parts and "Sussex" and "Southern" sound pretty similar.

To avoid being completely off-topic should I throw in the point (unrelated to the above) that with exceptions that someone more knowledgeable than me (not hard given current form) will doubtless point out, there's possibly not a lot of difference between an ICC covering you for 12 miles offshore in spanish waters and there being no limit?
 
awol said:
As an ICC can be obtained from the Boy Scouts, yes, really, amongst other places, this is not really an arduous obstacle.
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If I may respectfully point out: MORE nonsense from Scotland! The ICC is the minimum qualification required by the Scout Association for adult skippers on "Scouts Afloat" vessels in coastal waters. (Used to be called the "Water Badge") An approved "leader" is also required on board.

Max.
 
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ripvan1 said:
Cool guy, I was quoting from the more recent -
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2014/10/1...2014-10344.pdf
which is what the thread is based around.
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Thanks for the more recent link. Scanning through it I find the following:

Artículo 4. Habilitaciones de los títulos.
1. Los títulos reconocidos en este real decreto habilitan, de acuerdo con los requisitos y las excepciones previstas en este real decreto, para el gobierno de las embarcaciones de recreo y de las motos náuticas abanderadas o registradas y matriculadas en España, que sean utilizadas exclusivamente para actividades de recreo.

Roughly translated: 1. The certificates recognised in this royal decree permit, in accordance with the requisites and exceptions contained in this royal decree, the control of yachts and jet skis with Spanish flags or registered in Spain, which may be used exclusively for pleasure activities.

Further through this long decree I find the following:

Disposición adicional quinta. Exigencia de titulación para el gobierno de embarcaciones de recreo abanderadas en otros Estados.
1. Toda persona que gobierne una embarcación de recreo, abanderada en otros Estados, que navegue por aguas en las que España ejerza soberanía, derechos soberanos o jurisdicción deberá estar en posesión de una titulación que le habilite para realizar dicha navegación.
2. A los efectos previstos en el apartado anterior la titulación exigible, en aquellos casos en los que la nacionalidad del patrón coincida con la del pabellón de la embarcación, será la requerida de acuerdo con la legislación del país de nacionalidad del patrón; y para los casos en los que no coincidan ambas nacionalidades la titulación será aquella requerida por la legislación del país de residencia del patrón o en su defecto, la de su nacionalidad.

Again, roughly translated:

Requirement of qualifications for the control of yachts with flags from other states.
Everyone who sails a yacht with a foreign flag and sails in waters where Spain exercises sovereignty, sovereign rights or jurisdiction must be in possession of a qualification which allows them to carry out the mentioned sailing activity.
With reference to the previous paragraph the qualification which is required, in those cases where the nationality of the skipper coincides with the nationality of the vessel’s flag, shall be that which is required according to the legislation of the country where the skipper has nationality; and in those cases where the two nationalities do not coincide it will be the the legislation of the skipper’s country of residence, or if that does not exist, the legislation of his nationality.

The decree runs to 120 pages, but I think it's clear that if you sail a Spanish-flagged yacht - as I did for several years - you need a Spanish qualification or its British equivalent (if you are British) as listed in previous posts. If you sail a British-flagged yacht, you need a qualification which matches British legislation. Since British legislation does not envisage qualifications related to size of yachts and distance from the coast, I would imagine that the ICC is sufficient - as I think has always been suggested by the RYA.

As you may appreciate from the 120-page decree regulating yachting qualifications in Spain, the degree of legislation makes for a very different sailing environment. The relative lack of regulation in UK yachting allows us a freedom to practise our sport which we should defend tooth and nail. Not only are Spanish yachtsmen obliged to go through lengthy and expensive training courses, but also to maintain and equip their boats according to government regulations including for example annual revision of life-rafts, possession of two radio aerials in case they are dismasted etc. Also, Spanish-flagged boats have to pass expensive 5-yearly inspections and sailing licences have to be renewed every ten years.
 
And I should add, to renew a sailing licence, yachtsmen have to undergo a medical exam as well. And on reaching the age of 70, it's every five years.
 
Cool Guy said:
T
Again, roughly translated:

Requirement of qualifications for the control of yachts with flags from other states.
Everyone who sails a yacht with a foreign flag and sails in waters where Spain exercises sovereignty, sovereign rights or jurisdiction must be in possession of a qualification which allows them to carry out the mentioned sailing activity.
With reference to the previous paragraph the qualification which is required, in those cases where the nationality of the skipper coincides with the nationality of the vessel’s flag, shall be that which is required according to the legislation of the country where the skipper has nationality; and in those cases where the two nationalities do not coincide it will be the the legislation of the skipper’s country of residence, or if that does not exist, the legislation of his nationality.

The decree runs to 120 pages, but I think it's clear that if you sail a Spanish-flagged yacht - as I did for several years - you need a Spanish qualification or its British equivalent (if you are British) as listed in previous posts. If you sail a British-flagged yacht, you need a qualification which matches British legislation. Since British legislation does not envisage qualifications related to size of yachts and distance from the coast, I would imagine that the ICC is sufficient - as I think has always been suggested by the RYA.
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What I take away from this is:
- If you are a British passport holder sailing a British registered yacht, you only need to comply with UK regs regarding qualifications.
- Since there are NO UK requirements regarding qualifications, you don't NEED anything.

Forum storm in a teacup.
 
[QUOTEWhat I take away from this is:
- If you are a British passport holder sailing a British registered yacht, you only need to comply with UK regs regarding qualifications.
- Since there are NO UK requirements regarding qualifications, you don't NEED anything.

Forum storm in a teacup. ][/QUOTE]
Yup, that what I think as well!
 
I always think there are two possibilities when visiting foreign parts .....

There is that which you could possibly prove in an international court of law after extensive legal wrangling i.e. perhaps no qualifications are needed as a U.K. citizen sailing a U.K. registered vessel in foreign waters.

Or there is that which the locals want you to produce on demand in order to be left in peace to sail as a U.K. citizen sailing a U.K. registered vessel in foreign waters.

I personally think that complying with the second of the two makes for an easier and less stressful life.
 
Baggywrinkle said:
I always think there are two possibilities when visiting foreign parts .....

There is that which you could possibly prove in an international court of law after extensive legal wrangling i.e. perhaps no qualifications are needed as a U.K. citizen sailing a U.K. registered vessel in foreign waters.

Or there is that which the locals want you to produce on demand in order to be left in peace to sail as a U.K. citizen sailing a U.K. registered vessel in foreign waters.

I personally think that complying with the second of the two makes for an easier and less stressful life.
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Never been asked for anything other than registration document, insurance and on just one occasion my passport in Spain and France.

The time with the passport, was customs in Spain who asked for my address and the registration document (the registration document I did not have as it was with the marina). I think they were looking for Spanish owners with foreign flagged boats who had not paid their taxes.

I have an ICC but have never showed it to anybody!
 
OR4751 said:
What I take away from this is:
- If you are a British passport holder sailing a British registered yacht, you only need to comply with UK regs regarding qualifications.
- Since there are NO UK requirements regarding qualifications, you don't NEED anything.

Forum storm in a teacup.
Click to expand...

Although you have read it in this way, and it seems to make sense, this is not necessarily how a local official will read it. He may have been half asleep at the briefing on new legislation and only heard that licenses were required now. He would then look at the long confusing list and decide to make his life easier by asking every one he stops for their licence.

So having an ICC and following the Baggywrinkle approach will ensure you have no problems
 
Tranona said:
Although you have read it in this way, and it seems to make sense, this is not necessarily how a local official will read it. He may have been half asleep at the briefing on new legislation and only heard that licenses were required now. He would then look at the long confusing list and decide to make his life easier by asking every one he stops for their licence.

So having an ICC and following the Baggywrinkle approach will ensure you have no problems
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Somewhat patronising, don't you think?
Why would a Spanish plod be any more lazy/ignorant that a British plod?
The fact that no-one on here (visiting Spain since the new law came into force) has been asked for any qualifications seems to indicate that the Guardia Civil seems to be well aware of the current legislation and its implications for foreign skippers/yachts.
 
My approach has always been to have a certificate because the Spanish authorities expect it. When I sailed a Spanish-flagged boat, I always carried the relevant Spanish qualification just in case and because I'm resident in Spain I want to comply with Spanish regulations. Now I have a British-flagged boat, I carry a British qualification and the ICC as well because I know the Spanish are always surprised that UK skippers are not required to have any formal qualifications.

As I said in a previous post, I've never been asked for any qualification at any time either when I was owner of a Spanish boat or when sailing a British-flagged boat - and I've been sailing in and out of Spanish ports since 1979. However, the Spanish regard the paperwork as important, and I think it's important to respect the norms of the country you live in or visit.
 
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