Southerly keel stuck

[pandos]

The keel on my s100 will not drop the whole way. It will raise and lower by about 30 inches leaving about 14 inches in the boat..

It is not hydraulics or pennants and I cannot see anything jammed in the sides.

Anyone with any experience of this, or suggestions.

I was thinking of dropping letting the keel freefall to see if this would free it up...is this madness?

 

[Minerva]

The keel on my s100 will not drop the whole way. It will raise and lower by about 30 inches leaving about 14 inches in the boat..

It is not hydraulics or pennants and I cannot see anything jammed in the sides.

Anyone with any experience of this, or suggestions.

I was thinking of dropping letting the keel freefall to see if this would free it up...is this madness?

I’d probably get it slung up on a travel lift and having a good poke about. I imagine it will be caused by fouling somewhere in the box

 

[fredrussell]

I was thinking of dropping letting the keel freefall to see if this would free it up...is this madness?

Yes. As a lift-keel boat owner, to me, letting the keel free fall is the stuff of nightmares and would almost certainly sink my boat

 

[pandos]

Yes. As a lift-keel boat owner, to me, letting the keel free fall is the stuff of nightmares and would almost certainly sink my boat

I maybe should have pointed out that the boat is in a cradle in the yard so I can limit it's freefall so that it potentially only moves a few inches beyond its current position...

 

[pandos]

I’d probably get it slung up on a travel lift and having a good poke about. I imagine it will be caused by fouling somewhere in the box

No fouling to be seen. It was power washed thoroughly when it went into the yard. Yesterday I was able to see up onto the keel box and nothing could be seen that would jam it...

The cradle let's me work under it and raise and lower it.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

I have a yacht with a ballasted hydraulic lifting keel. I can gradually release pressure on/off quickly , a bit at a time , without the danger of a free fall. Just wondering what controls you have.

 

[Minerva]

No fouling to be seen. It was power washed thoroughly when it went into the yard. Yesterday I was able to see up onto the keel box and nothing could be seen that would jam it...

The cradle let's me work under it and raise and lower it.

Ahh. In a cradle. Thought you were trying to drop it still afloat.

Can you access the pivot bolt? Perhaps look to remove the whole keel blade to check bushings? Have you asked on the owners forum, if there is one?

 

[pandos]

Ahh. In a cradle. Thought you were trying to drop it still afloat.

Can you access the pivot bolt? Perhaps look to remove the whole keel blade to check bushings? Have you asked on the owners forum, if there is one?

The pivot is not accessible without dropping the entire mechanism..

It's moving smoothly for 30 inches so I can't see that there can be anything except rust or fouling.

I tried the owners forum but it's a bit slow and queries tend to sit without any sign that they have even been seen...

 

[pandos]

I have a yacht with a ballasted hydraulic lifting keel. I can gradually release pressure on/off quickly , a bit at a time , without the danger of a free fall. Just wondering what controls you have.

It's a southerly. The hydraulics ease it down using its own weight.

I can prop the keel and get slack on the pennants and then pull the prop away to allow a freefall. To prevent damage to the pennants or mechanism I can put blocks of wood under it...

 

[Minerva]

It's a southerly. The hydraulics ease it down using its own weight.

I can prop the keel and get slack on the pennants and then pull the prop away to allow a freefall. To prevent damage to the pennants or mechanism I can put blocks of wood under it...

If you can put a sturdy brace to ensure that the keel can’t free fall further than 150mm more than its current position, it may be worth a shot.

Pay attention to whether the shock loads from the dropping and shoogling of the keel could cause the cradle to be less secure (ie if your on a couple of old oil barrels or a stack of breeze blocks and some manky 2x4 nailed together I wouldn’t do as you propose!)

 

[pandos]

If you can put a sturdy brace to ensure that the keel can’t free fall further than 150mm more than its current position, it may be worth a shot.

Pay attention to whether the shock loads from the dropping and shoogling of the keel could cause the cradle to be less secure (ie if your on a couple of old oil barrels or a stack of breeze blocks and some manky 2x4 nailed together I wouldn’t do as you propose!)

It's in a solid steel cradle, no fear of it going anywhere.

Yes I think a drop should not cause any damage as it will be prevented from bottoming out...

 

[Poecheng]

[Southerly owner here]
There should be no problem raising and lowering the keel within a cradle as long as the boat is properly 'cradled' and obvs not in a high wind situation. Southerlys are designed to be laid down resting with the keel up and lying on railway sleepers under the cradle. There is no difficulty, if in a higher cradle which lifts the boat up to full height (ie in keel down mode), in dropping the keel down and raising it up to check it. This is standard stuff to check the keel or even just to clean/antifoul it. When I bought mine, the props/cradle raised the hull so that the keel was partly down, perhaps just a couple of feet.

George, who answered your question on the forum, is the expert in this field and there is a dowloadable file (I can send it to you) that has everything in it.

Looking at your photograph (on the forum) and at the drawing in the next post, it appears that it is the aft edge of the keel that should be vertical and yours looks like it is in the photograph?

Generally, when the keel goes full down, I can hear a mild 'clunk'. I believe (but havent checked it myself) that if, once the keel is down, you keep pressing the 'down' button for about 10s then there is further movement that provides a little slack in the penants.

I would have no hesitation about lowering it as much as you can. Put a bit of wood on the floor where you expect it to hit.

 

[neil_s]

I suffered from mud in the keelbox this summer. The keel went down about half it's travel and then stopped. This is a manual system with a leadscrew and wires. The drop keel weighs 1000 lbs. I gave the leadscrew another five turns and continued sailing. After a while the keel dropped down with quite a thud felt through the fabric of the boat. Those five turns equate to a free drop of only 23 mm - so if you are considering a free drop - in air - of 150 mm it will be a severe shock to your boat!

 

[pandos]

I have studied the file about the keel and many photos and forum posts and nothing to point to my problem.

The hydraulics are not powered in the downward mode so no slack can be created using the button, they are designed to ease the keel down without a bang.

However, with the manual drop valve opened I can pull the ram out which then creates slack.This is how I will be able to create the slack for a free fall with a block of wood to stop it.

I can't see that it will shock the boat greatly unless it is a dead stop at the current level.. so perhaps it should be a series of small free falls.

I guess if a drop from a few inches will not free it up even a few mms, there is something other than fouling and rust keeping it up, although I can't see how it can be anything other than stray bolt or tool that was allowed to fall into the keel box.

I dropped in a screwdriver and a bolt yesterday but recovered both with an endoscope and a coat hanger both were easy to spot, recovery was not so easy...

Even with the endoscope I could not see anything else in the works...

 

[Poecheng]

Correct re the ram not powering the keel down, the 'down' button releases the pressure allowing the keel to fall under its own weight. However, as I understand it it can release itself further, if pressed for a period after the keel has dropped. Not sure if that is correct and it would suggest the ram is powered 'out' to achieve this; worth a try for the sake of 15 seconds.

Anyway, as long as you can release the pressure on the penants by whatever method, then if the keel is capable of dropping further it is not the hydraulics that is impeding it. If you create a lot of slack and then the keel drops in one go, there will be a shock on the system that will be capable of causing harm. I would be tempted to control it perhaps by a combination of (a) a jack underneath the keel and (b) a ratchet strap or block and tackle attached around the back of keel to pull it down. Or you could use the ratchet/bock & tackle operating against the keel mechanism whilst the penants are in tension and then just press 'down' bit by bit. It shouldn't strain the mechism when in tension and any lack of tension in the penants can hopefully be taken up by the pressure on the keel.

 

[pandos]

I considered straps but to get a good angle would need to pull against the cradle which I would be afraid could move the boat..

I'll try the small drop and see...it's been sprayed with lubricant so perhaps that will have fixed the issue by time I arrive tomorrow...

Thanks for the replies..I'll report any progress or disasters...

 

[William_H]

Just as a fred drift, on my little boat the keel is very much like a dinghy keel (centre board ) about 100kg It is lifted vertically into the cabin up to the roof.
The keel is a foil shape with a rectangular shaped top that sits into the rectangular keel box. So when I drop it rapidly the square top sits on the inside of the hull. (but inside the box) In the water the box fills with water for several inches. When the keel falls rapidly the top hits the water and works like a damper to slow the crash. Spraying water out into the cabin in the process. No I don't like dropping it uncontrolled except for the 4 part rope tackle attached. But occasionally it sticks so rapid drop is called for.
Sorry this is a long way from swing keel which I would imagine could be dropped rapidly without harm. The inertia of the swing being the main concern there being no fall at that stage. ol'will

 

[pandos]

Success. The free fall worked a treat...I was a bit cautious at the outset so it took a bit of work to reset as the hydraulics were not man enough to lift the keel, after it passed into the sticky zone.

I'll need to get the boat shifted on the cradle to get the last out of it but measurements suggest another 3 to 4 inches to go.

The problem seems to be rust and antifouling in the forward part near the pivot.

It's soaking now in an acetone and ATF mix and this might help. Ultimately it will get sandblasted and ground once it is mobilised.

It seems that this part of the keel has not seen the light of day for some years.

Afaik the copper coat was covered about 5 years ago...

 

[Ian_Edwards]

I have a Southerly 46RS, which has a similar lifting keel arrangement.
The Hydraulics lift the keel, and gravity lowers it.
Lowering is governed by a relief valve (this may not be the correct technical term) the relief valve is adjustable, if you open the relief valve the keel will fall faster.
The hydraulic power pack Southerly fitted is a bought in module, the the pump is incorporated into the hydraulic reservoir, along with the valve pack.
You should be able to find the adjustable relief valve on the valve pack, it's usually some form of knurled knob with a locking nut on the same thread. Try adjusting the valve, I think turning the value anticlockwise should make the keel drop faster.
If you raise the keel and experiment with the valve you should be able to increase the moment the keel has in a controllable way, which may dislodge whatever is holding the keel up.
BUT - beware you may just drive what ever is holding the keel and wedging it even tighter.

Have you tried poking a thin batten or metal strip up between the keel and the keel box?
If both sides are clear, then it has to be the pivot pin, and to access that you need to drop the grounding plate.
You can't access the pin from inside the boat.
I had to do that, and the area around the Stainless Steel pin was covered in rust, and the pin was very difficult to remove. You need to take the weight off the pin, supporting the end of the keel won't work. You need to get a jack, of similar directly under the pin.
We finished up using a drift and a very big hammer.
Getting the pin back in, also difficult, you really need to line the holes up very carefully, which isn't easy given the weight of the lift keel, 2.5 tons in my case.

 

[Ian_Edwards]

Well done, sorry my post was a bit late to be of any use.