Soft shackle

[noelex]

If you use small chain, in our case 6mm, and maybe 8mm (in the dark and rain) then threading the soft shackle through a link is not so easy.

Most chain hooks, or devices can be attached with one hand.

Jonathan

There is no perfect connection system between the chain and the snubber. The best solution is to try the various options and see which one you prefer. A soft shackle is my personal favourite, but yours may be different and that is fine. The better soft shackle designs can be attached with one hand if this is an important factor.

Testing the soft shackle option is reasonably risk free so I would encourage everyone to give it a try. If it is not your favourite solution, the soft shackle will have a multitude of other uses so the cost (which is low these days anyway) will not be wasted.

The soft shackle will never fall off, slip, jam or abrade the galvanising. It will also pass over the bow roller without risking any damage. There is a lot to like.

For most boats the strength of the soft shakle that comfortably fits through the chain will be well above the strength of the nylon snubber, at least if you use one of the better designs of soft shackle incorporating the button knot with high quality HMWPE. Strength is not normally a concern.

Smaller boats with thinner chain can use thinner soft shackles so normally the fit is just as easy. However, on your previous boat you were using G100 chain in 6mm diameter on a large catamaran so it may be an issue in this case.

What was the breaking strength of the snubber you were using and what sized soft shackle did you try?

 

[Neeves]

There is no perfect connection system between the chain and the snubber. The best solution is to try the various options and see which one you prefer. A soft shackle is my personal favourite, but yours may be different and that is fine. The better soft shackle designs can be attached with one hand if this is an important factor.

Testing the soft shackle option is reasonably risk free so I would encourage everyone to give it a try. If it is not your favourite solution, the soft shackle will have a multitude of other uses so the cost (which is low these days anyway) will not be wasted.

The soft shackle will never fall off, slip, jam or abrade the galvanising. It will also pass over the bow roller without risking any damage. There is a lot to like.

For most boats the strength of the soft shakle that comfortably fits through the chain will be well above the strength of the nylon snubber, at least if you use one of the better designs of soft shackle incorporating the button knot with high quality HMWPE. Strength is not normally a concern.

Smaller boats with thinner chain can use thinner soft shackles so normally the fit is just as easy. However, on your previous boat you were using G100 chain in 6mm diameter on a large catamaran so it may be an issue in this case.

What was the breaking strength of the snubber you were using and what sized soft shackle did you try?

The strength of 12mm nylon is 25 kN (say 2,500kg), my soft shackle was made from 4mm Liros. The nominal UTS offers approximately a WLL of 600kg - which, to me, seems reasonable.

However my Bridle plate is not simply a means to attach a snubber to the chain but attaches 2 snubbers, a bridle, and the arrangement I have devised significantly improves scope with very little of the bridle forward of the bow (so does not demand 'space' or sea room). I could deploy a 15m (each arm) bridle (7t x 38' cat) but only have about 3m forward of the bow and the scope calculation does not need to include height from bow to sea level. The bridle plate also allows each bridle arm to be extended, by as much as you have planned for (in our case 30m each side) from the cockpit. My arrangment also manages snatch loads from chop as well as yacht veering. This can all be achieved with soft shackles and LFRs - but its simply not neat.

Snubbers are all about extension, or elasticity, the more wind, or chop, you have the better the snubbing effect with more elasticity.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

I've always felt that snubbers are a bit like suncreen. It's mostly a matter of getting them to use anything. Only then can you discuss the fine points.

I've used a bridle plate, Mantus hook, soft shackles, and a prusik hitch + wire gate carabiners. My preference is mostly determined by the geometry when deploying, and even more, recovering when it's bouncy. Also, it must be a locking attachment; I've had every type of non-locking hook come off when resting in soft mud and dead air, even the labyrinthine sorts.

 

[zoidberg]

The Bullseye weave to retain low friction rings was developed by my wife. It is very easily constructed

I seem to recall the Bullseye Weave illustrated - complete with 'how to' - on another forum. Would you/she care to give a link here, or an exposition?

 

[noelex]

The strength of 12mm nylon is 25 kN (say 2,500kg), my soft shackle was made from 4mm Liros. The nominal UTS offers approximately a WLL of 600kg - which, to me, seems reasonable.

The last time I used 6mm chain was on my first yacht, well before Dyneema was available. I don’t have any 6mm chain on board to try, but I would expect a 4mm soft shackle to be a tight fit so this may explain why you struggled fitting the soft shackle through the chain.

Selecting suitable connecting "hardware" when using the high test chain you have is always going to be more difficult. A 3mm soft shackle may have been a better choice than 4mm, preferably a captured soft shackle for this application. A captured soft shackle is more convenient, as it cannot be lost even when undone (another one of my wife’s clever innovations ).

A high strength 3mm soft shackle constructed using the better HMWPE materials such as Stealth Super-12 should have a break load of around 3000 kgf. This is greater than the strength of a single 12mm nylon line, even before considering the considerable degradation in strength that nylon suffers in practice when wet. The soft shackle would just replace or attach to the metal bridal plate so the geometry of your system would not change.

Using soft shackles to connect the snubber to the chain is the not the best system for every boat, but if you purchase a yacht in the future it may be worth revisiting the subject and trialing this again with a smaller diameter. Modern soft shackle designs and materials are easier to use, stronger and much less expensive than previous generations.

 

[noelex]

I seem to recall the Bullseye Weave illustrated - complete with 'how to' - on another forum. Would you/she care to give a link here, or an exposition?

The best explanation on how to tie the bullseye weave is here:

Bullseye strops for low friction rings

There is also useful information on the bullseye weave in a loop, soft shackle and twin low friction rings in the thread below (but it is a little long and rambling).

Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

 

[thinwater]

...The soft shackle would just replace the metal bridal plate so the geometry of your system would not change....

In my experience, it all depends on the boat. On my current boat (trimaran) attaching a bridle plate is awkward, the easiest is a prusik hitch, anf the most difficult is a soft shackle. On my PDQ a bridle plate was the easiest and the second easiest was a soft shackle. On the monohulls I tested on a soft shackle was easiest.

It all depends on geometry. I don't think any amount of discussion can resolve this. They all work very well.

...

Any soft shackle can be attached to the line with a seizing, if that would be helpful. Also, more soft shackle designs here:
L-36 soft shackles

 

[zoidberg]

The best explanation on how to tie the bullseye weave is here:

Bullseye strops for low friction rings

There is also useful information on the bullseye weave in a loop, soft shackle and twin low friction rings in the thread below (but it is a little long and rambling).

Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Ah, yes. 'Seaworthy Lass'....

Every boat should have one!

 

[noelex]

In my experience, it all depends on the boat. On my current boat (trimaran) attaching a bridle plate is awkward, the easiest is a prusik hitch, anf the most difficult is a soft shackle. On my PDQ a bridle plate was the easiest and the second easiest was a soft shackle. On the monohulls I tested on a soft shackle was easiest.

Yes, agreed. I do not suggest that a soft shackle is the best solution to attach the snubber for every yacht. It is interesting that you have found that soft shackles work best for monohulls, a bridle plate for catamarans, and a prusik hitch (my second favourite method) for trimarans. This indicates some experimentation is useful, particularly if you find your current system has any drawbacks.

The same is true when considering other shackles around the boat. There are situations where a conventional metal shackle is the better option, and others where a soft shackle is superior. We are lucky to live in times where both options are readily available.

 

[Roberto]

then threading the soft shackle through a link is not so easy.

In case one wants/needs to use a soft shackle for the snubber, a long one "prussiked" around the chain (as many turns as one likes) might be an additional solution.
This one goes around the gypsy without problems (unlike a thick snubber directly prussiked around the chain); the thimble is the rope snubber proper.

 

[Neeves]

As far as I can make out a soft shackle when used to attach a snubber to the rode does exactly that, it secures the snubber to the rode. A soft shackle may do more - but no-one has mentioned it.

We would often dry out and when dried out the rode is easier to see and equally the rode scope can be clearly seen. Scope is considered by many as a critical 'number' when anchoring (I'm not so sure). But assuming it is critical then scope is usually measured as a ratio of the vertical distance from bow roller to seabed and horizontal distance from bow roller to the anchor.

In these 2 images I chose to anchor at 10:1 - not because we needed to but its a simply number. We draw 1m and for the sake of simple arithmetic our bow roller (marginally above the trampoline, you can see the chain disappearing through the hole in the tramp) is 1m above the water line. I have deployed 20m of chain - so a 10:1 scope.



Except that the scope should not be measure as I describe above - but in our case the scope is the ration from the bridle plate - which is roughly at the water line.

So in this case, and I have 2 examples in the same location, showing some consistency, the scope is actually 20:1 - the scope is defined by how the bridle plate is altering the rode angle (as a ratio) from 10:1 to 20:1.

So.... though a soft shackle would work for us, or we could make it work, is would not manipulate the scope. For those who worship at the alter of scope - have a bridle plate - or their multihull - could be comforting. Knowing how the bridle plate manipulates scope can also be used on a monohull, if you use a snubber retainer based on the same background as our bridle plate - but you would need a pad eye near the water line on the stem - a device like this one



A bridle is used on a cat, or any multi because the 'V' arrangement of the 2 snubbers manages veering. In the same way the arrangement I illustrate in the first 2 images we have devised a 'V' arrangement 'in the horizontal' from bow to plate to bow and also 'V' arrangements from bow to plate to water line 'in the vertical' - which better manages chop. It is more difficult to see how this could be simply achieved using soft shackles. If you look carefully we have tried to enhance the chop management using those rubber dog bone things, in the first image.

Viking Anchor sell Bridle Plates and the Monohull version - but you can easily make your own, all you need is a modicum of skill, an angle grinder and a bench drill. The 2 part threaded LFR rings you can buy off the shelf from a number of suppliers (and you would drill the holes using a drill bit to suit.


So .... soft shackles might be the best things since sliced bread - but bridle plates can hold their own.

But that is not all

If I miss a forecast and the weather goes pear shaped, beyond what we imagined and this 'storm' comes unexpectedly we can extend our snubbers, the bridle, from the comfort of the cockpit (as we had a windlass control at the helm). Our birdle runs to the transom and each arm is secured (when at anchor) to a sheet winch. Wind and chop builds - we can simply deploy more chain and more snubber (and then go back to bed - no rain and seawater spray on our Jim Jams . The soft shackle alternative demands retrieving the soft shackle by taking in the rode (which might only be possible under engine), disengaging at the windlass, deploying more chain, reattaching the soft shackle - all togged up in foul weather gear at 2am.

We like our bridle plate. Snubber/bridle securement (and more) for all seasons.

We even took on Thinwater's demand to have a locking gate - we have a retractable pin casing the slot - the chain cannot not fall out.

I imagine bad weather.....

Safety at Sea: Surviving a Powerful Storm in the Med | Cruising World

Soft shackles lack the versatility of a bridle plate, no scope modification, difficult to extend the snubber in comfort and safety, back up locks can be included, no management of both yawing and chop.

Nothing wrong with soft shackles - they simply don't cut the mustard for snubbers or bridles.

We have tried soft shackles for a bridle or snubber - when the chips are down - see article above - bridle plates rule.

Jonathan

 

[noelex]

For those interested in a captured soft shackle, below is an example. It works like a normal soft shackle, but cannot be lost. Even when undone it will not come off and drop into the water.

This can be used for many applications where you want to leave the shackle open without the risk of loss. It is an ideal modification for the chain to snubber connection if you decide to use a soft shackle.

The picture below shows a bowline (with a Yosemite finish) tied around a soft shackle. For a snubber you would normally splice an eye into the nylon rather than use a knot, but the weave around the soft shackle is the same.

 

[Roberto]

A locking soft shackle with the "traditional" version, probably 90% of the soft shackles I use

 

[Neeves]

A locking soft shackle with the "traditional" version, probably 90% of the soft shackles I use
View attachment 180508

If you make your splice with an eye at both ends you do not need the stopper knot, just cow hitch to itself. Its neater and less bulky (and quick to make). The splice needs to be long enough for the cover to lock the innards but as you have double the amount of 'innards' its not so long.

And maybe its cheating but I sew my eyes, I cover the body with shrink fit sleeves (shrunk in boiling water) and if the eye might suffer from abrasion I cover the eye with hollow dyneema tape or more shrink fit. But I do not use them for attaching anchor to rode nor snubber to rode.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

In case one wants/needs to use a soft shackle for the snubber, a long one "prussiked" around the chain (as many turns as one likes) might be an additional solution.
This one goes around the gypsy without problems (unlike a thick snubber directly prussiked around the chain); the thimble is the rope snubber proper.
View attachment 180458


View attachment 180459

One tuck is a luggage tag or girth hitch. Two or three is a prusik hitch. Invented by Karl Prusik.

A girth hitch will hold on chain. Rope requires a prusik, and Dyneema single braid will slip (climbing prusiks have polyester in them, at least as a blend) at considerable lower load than polyester. Dyneema is slippery, remember? It's not so good with friction knots, which is why the splice buries need to be 50-70 diameters, compared to half that for polyester single braid.

So yes, this can work well with chain , but chain only.

 

[thinwater]

I used to think soft shackles were 100% secure. But in the past few years I have had several come off when secured by inexperienced crew. Obviously, I'm not sure exactly what was done wrong, but I imagine they just stuffed the knot through the hole and didn't snug/milk it down. Who can say. Two very different types, so don't tell me it was construction. One had been on the boat for three years. So just take that for what it is worth.

Better or worse than a snap shackle in this regard? Similar, maybe.

Yes, you can do anything wrong.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

.

Yes, you can do anything wrong.

As the saying goes, if you invent something foolproof, someone will invent a new kind of fool.

 

[zoidberg]

But in the past few years I have had several come off when secured by inexperienced crew... I imagine they just stuffed the knot through the hole and didn't snug/milk it down.

Thought - the loop which passes around just below the button knot is usually a 'half-turn'. What might be the effect of making a complete 'round turn' on security?

 

[Neeves]

Thought - the loop which passes around just below the button knot is usually a 'half-turn'. What might be the effect of making a complete 'round turn' on security?

I might misunderstand -

You could envisage doing that single handed (one of the virtues extolled for soft shackles.

And I do think I understand, I do think it is an idea meriting thought (I might try it, or variants) and I'm prompted to consider other ideas.....

But it has to be easy and simple...

I like Thinwater's use of toggles rather than a button knot

Jonathan

 

[GHA]

Thought - the loop which passes around just below the button knot is usually a 'half-turn'. What might be the effect of making a complete 'round turn' on security?

Seems pretty pointless, you'd need to be pretty clueless to fit a soft shackle that can come undone - they just don't. Why set up a boat for people who don't know anything - where would you stop?