Lightwave395
Well-Known Member
Are they here now ? What's the USP - if there is one ?
PGN L5 Sodium Ion Battery(L5 Case) 12V 100AH – BMS Technologies LTD
PGN L5 Sodium Ion Battery(L5 Case) 12V 100AH – BMS Technologies LTD
Sodium ion batteries
- Thread starter Lightwave395
- Start date
Minerva
Well-Known Member
Last conference I was at they were expecting sodium ion to be lower fire risk and cheaper to produce than both forms of lithium due to more availability of sodium compared to lithium but around 20% less energy dense (so 20% bigger and heavier for similar size battery). It’ll be very interesting to see where it ends up in the coming years.
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
The big downside of Sodium Ion for leisure boat use is that the power is delivered over quite a wide voltage range.
This is fine if you're running a dedicated system, like a car, that is designed for it. But we want a healthy 12v+ on our boats and these batteries will drop below that when they still have a lot of capacity left.
It's like having a big tank of fuel but the pickup is half way down the side- you just can't use it all.
There's been a lot of hype about sodium, and people saying that they are holding out until it goes mainstream, but honestly, there's not much wrong with LFP. It's here, it's about as safe as any high density energy storage can be, it's cheap, it's well understood, and it works in the voltage range that we need. You'll be waiting a long time for anything better.
This is fine if you're running a dedicated system, like a car, that is designed for it. But we want a healthy 12v+ on our boats and these batteries will drop below that when they still have a lot of capacity left.
It's like having a big tank of fuel but the pickup is half way down the side- you just can't use it all.
There's been a lot of hype about sodium, and people saying that they are holding out until it goes mainstream, but honestly, there's not much wrong with LFP. It's here, it's about as safe as any high density energy storage can be, it's cheap, it's well understood, and it works in the voltage range that we need. You'll be waiting a long time for anything better.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Every so often forums and media go on about a new tech in batterys about to hit the market .... about how much better it will be .... and then ?????? Zilch .. Nada ... nothing !!
fredrussell
Well-Known Member
Not just batteries either, whatever happened to graphene?
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
I note that diesel has the highest energy density of any energy store on a boat, beating any form of rechargeable battery by orders of magnitude!
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Arrrr ... Nanotech .. then Graphene ....
Interesting that you mention that .. Graphene is still promoted by some RC hobby sites - but the initial surge has definitely died off ...
On Nanotech .. we have an even more interesting line .... that developed TWO paths .... Nanotech ... Nano Tech ... you would assume they are same .. but actually they are not. Playing on the buzz word at that time of Nano Technology.
MikeBz
Well-Known Member
Battery tech is still moving at a rapid pace. What we tend to hear about is the first time a single cell from a new technology has been proved to function, but it’s always many years before it gets to production (if it ever does). I would bet the house that in 10 years time today’s batteries will have been surpassed by a long long way.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Magic - the holy grail is within reach
........ - except that batteries can harvest the sun and so far no-one has found a way to replace diesel used except from the fuel bowser.
Jonathan
lustyd
Well-Known Member
This always makes me laugh when people moan about range on electric yachts. A diesel yacht will permanently be out of fuel after enough hours of motoring while an electric one has unlimited range with even a modest solar setup.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Fine ... but who wants a boat covered in solar panels ?? The inherent problem is that not every day can you harvest at anywhere near full rate on panels ... many days - the panels will struggle to harvest anything ... what do you do then ?
toothless
Well-Known Member
I think sodium has promise but will be a victim of circumstance. LFP is now so good and being made so cheaply in Chinese mega factories that the sodium tech just doesn't have an economic way in. Maybe if the EU or whatever said all electric cars sold there had to be sodium based (and ideally the batteries need to be made in the EU, to bring a bit of industry home) then it would get some traction but failing that I don't see a transition happening any time soon
toothless
Well-Known Member
My catalac is full electric propulsion (well, that and sails). Works fine 8 months of the year in the UK. In the depths of winter you need to use marinas overnight rather than anchoring out so you can top up the batteries but you don't use the boat as much so....
lustyd
Well-Known Member
You wait. Much easier than finding a fuel dock mid-pacific.
Maybe you’ve not noticed but most boats are covered in solar anyway
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Isn't that what sails are for ?
Maybe you’ve not noticed but most boats are covered in solar anyway
Not to the extent that would be required to maintain electric propulsion indefintely as you implied in your previous post ... there's a practical / cosmetic limit and there's what would be required to maintain the power levels ... the two often do not agree ...
Even you must agree there .. unless another disagreement is intended ??
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Yes, but this is the same between diesel and electric. Eventually sailors run out of wind.
You’re confusing unlimited range with perpetual running. Most boats move once a week and could easily recharge in between. My point though is that if a diesel and an electric motor into the pacific, the diesel may never be seen again because it’s range is definitely finite and a fuel refill depends entirely on others. The electric may take time but will refill and motor without outside help forever effectively (and the components will last longer with no maintenance too).
The only issue is most sailors are in a hurry due to work. That doesn’t alter the fact that solar electric has infinite range while diesel does not.
fredrussell
Well-Known Member
My 30ft boat has tankage for about 150 miles at 5 knots or so. Electric boats I’ve read about often seem to have a range of 60 miles of so. When that ‘typical range’ for a given weight of batteries raises to 100 or more, and it surely will soon, I wouldn’t hesitate to go electric. I have an electric outboard- it is pure joy to use after the many IC outboards I’ve had over the years.
kwb78
Well-Known Member
Funnily enough, it's used in those very batteries as part of the cathode.
It's also being increasingly used in various other applications. As ever going from a handmade material in a lab for research to a commercially useful product is not always simple, and as ever the press hype things up without really knowing what they are talking about. The massively strong single-atom sheet graphene that was touted as 'hundreds of times stronger than steel' is unlikely to ever exist for large scale applications, but that doesn't mean the discovery was useless.
Here's quite a good article about it: https://www.science.org/content/art...er-its-discovery-graphene-finally-living-hype
geem
Well-Known Member
When you need speed to make a tidal gate of you are heading back to your home port after two weeks summer holiday and their is no wind, speed and range become important. Being able to manage 1kt under motor because you have no battery power available isn't offering anywhere near the convenience of a tank of diesel.
It makes far more sense to keep the diesel and ditch the gas in my experience. Our solar has harvested 1.1MW of power since July last year. We still have 4/5th of the tank of diesel we left La Gomera with in November last year.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Start up the generators
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