so whats WRONG with Bavarias then?

It's strange that such bile, snobbishness and arrogance only seems to come from HR owners. Owners of the likes of Najad, Swan, Oyster (all superior to HR's) don't come on here and slag off boats that are less expensive than theirs, and therefore "inferior". No, it's only Rassey owners it seems (as well as some MAB owners it has to be said!!).

As my wife would say, they must feel some kind of insecurity and inferiority - it probably comes from the "Little man syndrome" or the "little member syndrome".

I once had a Rassey raft up against me in Yarmouth, and on my return the owner said "Don't know how I'm going to tell my friends I was rafted next to a Bavaria!!" (can you believe it?)

"Don't worry. I said "You're about as welcome as a genital rash!!" After that we got on OK and even had a few beers together, but why did he feel the need to display such arrogance in the first place??

I just don't get it.
 
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No, it's only Rassey owners it seems (as well as some MAB owners it has to be said!!).

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I am a MAB owner who has contributed to this thread and I am not anti BAV but at the same time I am not pro BAV. For the same reasons I would not buy a benny, I do not want to be like everyone else. There are just too many of them.

In the car world I wanted an estate, by far the most popular was the mondeo followed by the volvo V40, I refused to look at any as they were common, in the real sense of the word. I bought a Subaru Legacy, brilliant, have seen maybe 10 since owning one, how often you buy a car and suddenly you see them everywhere. Am I a snob, maybe, but to put perspective on it, I could not afford a new mondeo, my Legacy is older than the equiv mondeo I could have bought, but I still bought the older. In some ways I wish I had bought a mundano as I have just paid out for a full refurb of the auto box, scary numbers!

Well the same in the boat world, given the choice I want to be different, I find it hard to distinguish between the bens and bavs, a blue stripe I believe.

I do believe bavs and bens are damaging the industry, yes they give value for money, but so did Lada. I suspect that their pricing structure is unsustainable, I believe (and prolly wrong) they are selling much at loss. They are killing the competition, then what, everything really will look the same.

How sad would that be.

I do not look down on owners of bavs, how could I? But I don't like them regardless of how they sail. What is really sad, for a few extra Euro's they could add some lines, something beautiful, instead they are the boat equivalent of a washing machine, does everything it is meant to but nothing more. Jeremy Clarksons washing machine car is very prominent here.

Sorry, waffling again...
 
How are they damaging the industry. People buy them and need marinas and chandlers like everyone else.


How is their pricing structure unstainable. They have introduced cost effective manufacturing processes, and hence are wiping the floor with old fashioned manufacturers who cannot compete on cost.
 
You answered your question for me, old time yards going to the wall.

Look at cars, they all look the same. Cars all built down to a price using the cheapest possible methods of production. Value for money yes, quality is well acceptable.

I love looking at photographs even from my childhood where there is a picture of the road and cars parked there. So many different makes, able to tell a brand from a thousand paces. When I was a kid I could name any car that I saw on a motorway trip. Have a look at the saxo-cleo-jazz-106-etc etc prolly 20 more. They are all the same.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with them, but, yawn. I realise as a school boy car spotting is a kind of hobby I have grown out of, but how much of that is through shear boredom.

When I was playing boats as a kid, I was mostly mobo, but I knew and recognised most of the sailing things, westerlies, moodys, achilles etc. They all had a look and gave owners a choice.

I walk around a boatshow and half the time don't know which brand I am on, never mind model. This is not progress.

I guess when I say damaging the industry, it is more than bums on seats, what this new manufacturer seems to have created is a serious lack of choice. Also in typical German manufacturing, they release so many new models which can be new because of an alteration to the wiring loom. They seem to find a design and just fiddle with that for the next 20 years.

Trouble is, the design they found was the cheapest way to produce a yacht, good yes, but bad very much yes, a yacht should make me go all gooey, ben-bavs don't. The mobo industry is just the same, everything built around a teardrop window.

The only way it seems to get an interesting boat is to get the concrete mixers out or learn to weld, which is really scary, IMO.
 
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I once had a Rassey raft up against me in Yarmouth, and on my return the owner said "Don't know how I'm going to tell my friends I was rafted next to a Bavaria!!" (can you believe it?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Couple of months ago we spent a night in Fox's. When requesting a berth the reply was: "We'll put you alongside an Oyster 46" - My reply: "As it's only for one night I don't mind slumming it".
 
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And quite frankly, I wouldn't want to be part of a community that thinks its OK to belittle people with boats made at a different price point.

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Let me tell you a tale:
More often than not these Bav's are all shiny & new (less than 2-3 years old) - owners first boat - biggest bang for buck - all polished to within an inch of their life.
All the boats I have owned have been a LOT older and looked it.
When entering a marina & being assigned a berth next to one of those new shiny things you should see the shock and horror in their owner's eyes - "Oh my God - that old thing is coming alongside us!! And look, it's only two children!!". Extra hands & fenders to repel borders.
I have been parking boats/ships a lot larger all my adult life!

To psychoanalyse for a minute - maybe the main reason I don't like them is the Bav 42 owning prat who nearly killed my daughter in Alderney in 2005!

Call me a snob? Listen to this: it's the sound of me not caring!
Comment on where we sailed - ditto! I sail with two - young - children! Because my boat can take it, does not mean the crew can or even has to!

Feel better now!
Have a nice day.
 
I almost daren't ask, but how did a Bav 42 owning twat nearly kill your daughter?

An by the way, this is not to defend anything, I would just like to know as Alderney is one of my favourite places and I am struggling to see how it might occour.
 
"More often than not these Bav's are all shiny & new (less than 2-3 years old)"
That is a statistical impossibility (unless you are seriously suggesting that all Bavs >3 yrs have sunk)

"When entering a marina & being assigned a berth next to one of those new shiny things you should see the shock and horror in their owner's eyes " Really? Are you saying this has happened with every encounter with a Bav berth neighbour and never with owners of other boats? I think maybe you're being a bit harsh.

"To psychoanalyse for a minute - maybe the main reason I don't like them is the Bav 42 owning prat who nearly killed my daughter in Alderney in 2005!" Although I don't know the details, As a father of 2 daughters too, I can understand why such an event might cause you to feel that way. But any psychanalyst would tell you that your dislike of all Bavs as a consequence is a form of paranoia/projection. It's not really based on reason is it?

"Call me a snob? Listen to this: it's the sound of me not caring!"
I'm surprised that you don't care about being called a snob. Whether this means you accept you are one, I've no idea. But you've a Kalik 44, not an HR. I've also no idea whether this entitles you to membership of the shrinking minority of so-called prestige boat owners - most of whom, I would hope, do not display boorish comments as have been made here. Your Kalik has been chosen I believe for a specific future long term cruising plan - and it may well be a very sensible choice. I woud suggest though that it's not appropriate to engage in daft sneering which appears solely designed to prevoke.

This thread began with a reasonably (though oddly repetitive) question. Becky gave an entirely balanced observation - no name calling, no 'nostril-in-the-air' response. It then moved very quickly to a comment about Bav owners themselves - eg marina parking lessons. This was then turned into a fairly shameful silly set of comments about orange interiors, somebody claiming to have been pysically sick on viewing inside a Bav and some examples of out and out snobbery - eg terraced houses. Such comments are not just offensive, they are ridiculous. I'll admit I was moved to respond, albeit in a mocking way, but I did also comment that I don't think HR's are crap boats. There are very few really crap new boats. I agree with Dogwatch in that they may all look similar and this is indeed like what has happened with cars - computers respond according to what is asked of them and most manufacturers these days are looking for decent accomodation, a sloop rig, large engine with saildrive, large cockpit, lowest cost and sailing ability. Each of these factors creates something of a compromise and some people might not like the compromise. That's fine. If people are worried about supposedly undersized deck equipment and backing plates, then have them changed.

So, accepting that all boats are a compromise of sorts, whether its an HR or a Bav, it's up to the potential buyer to make a balanced decision. If I wanted to, I could certainly afford to buy a new HR. In my case, I'd actually prefer to buy three Bavs instead - one for the Carib, One the Med and the other in the UK! No, really!

There may be plenty of crap owners of all brands, but if the poster was serious in the question first posed, I think it's best to stick to facts (real facts, not third hand 'rumour'). A delivery trip or two, like a charter, is not the same as living with a boat as an owner, over a period of time. Even then, a Bav may not be for you. But they obviously are the right choice for an awful lot of people, who I refuse to believe are just pawpers or stupid. You know really, that your Kalik is a compromise isn't it?
 
Though I have limited experience of Bav - two testing trips have confirmed me belief that I would not want one. Tho I do accept that it may be a good choice for others.

As to snobbery: my rant just wanted to show that it's by no means a one-way street. Everybody looking down on Bav. There are a fair bit of snooty Bav owners about too who look down on older boats.

Kalik & membership of the shrinking minority of so-called prestige boat owners: I don't know, or think so. Very few people have even heard of Kalik - I hadn't till I bought one.

So yes, my dislike of Bavs is partly subjective but also in part on my experience in those two delivery trips.
 
Its interesting that some of the comments made about the colour and build quality of the Bav came from people who openly despise the boats. Its interesting that they have spent their time, wasting others time in inspecting the boats so closely?

Do these people go to SIBS and target boats they hate, to find more evidence in an attempt to discredit the product?

Or is it some sort of fetish, SM, or just nothing else to do but to look for something to complain about?

I have never stepped aboard a Bav. I'm not interested, so I'm not going to waste anyones time.
 
Just read the story and I agree that it was not nice and could have ended up even worse.

That said, could it possibly be that he made a mistake and screwed up.

I don't recall being there at the time and so don't know why I, as a Bavaria owner should be tarred with the brush.

Moody owners are not all bad just because one nearly t-boned me a couple of weeks back. Only due to my last minute crash turn, even though I was stand-on, prevented it.

Come on, get over yourself. I was taught to move on from negatives at a very young age.
 
Not the bav\'s fault in Alderney

hm, was it really a bright idea to share a buoy in the first place in a northerly in Alderney? I think not. I wouldn't have rafted, and/or wouldn't have let you raft if I was on the buoy to tangle masts etc.

Also, bit strange to blame the other boat for pushing you, instead of you for being there and/or the crew for missing footing - and how hard can a boat be pushed anyway - it's not like pushing a skateboard is it? No.

Next time when unrafting, get crew to double back final lines (which should be made off on your boat anyway for control) so they are on board when the boat is free to leave. This might (in fact it often does) mean putting on doubled shorter lines is the first step before untying existing lines. In any event the final manouevre from a berth should not be "leap on". Poor training/skippering and hence poor crewing lead to the accident imho.

However, I have to admit I suggested the same recently on ljs's boat from Clare Island as i thought we could get off easily - but once untied the boat movement isn't damped and the final leap aboard isn't as easy as it seemed when tied up. Fortunately, the vastly experienced crewmember para didn't try the "final leap" but waited until the boat was in easier range again.
 
Certainly the longest thread I've ever started -but I cannot say I like the vitriol involved. OK question was meant to stir a bit of boat debate when forum seems full of non boat stuff, but I do not think forum is gaining anything from the level of aggro. Some good honest interesting stuff though -which is what I'm here for.
Keep your hats on!
 
ze \"3 bavs\" fender

do they do something other than the mahogany inside yet? A lighter wood wd be nicer AND useful for those people buying three bavs who would know where they are by the colour of the wood.

Anyway i wanted to say that there is definitely a market for an upmarket yacht. I pretty much see all bav/HR/oystr as abou the same really - not one has really cracked it with regards to a smart interior - by being nicer than the average new flat for example. As it is, they're all a bit nicer than an ole rental westerly, but most still look as though i made the insides on a good day. I mean, no problem, i'm not bad at that sort of stuff. But on HR and Oyster hoho. We went round the 800k 53ish footer sheesh. It had the littlest plastic light switches, probly work fine but you said this was "quality" hm mr salesman? Ok, the foor doesn't creak due to the incredible genius of a bit of foam under the cabin sole sections marvellous. But what's that A2 stainless set screw doing in the companionway eh - it should be A4 at this price. And you can see loads of stopped screw holes on the teak deck - "stops" should be invisible unless you're doing o-level woodwork. We left. New Etap not much better - smart but flimsy with unforgiving Phillipe Starcky surface/doors show evn the tiniest ding and dent.


The killer will come when Bav start moving upmarket. Same as Honda making the only car that people were swarming on at the car show (new Civic) so the next generation (or the one after that) of bavs will clean up.

Also i'm a bit peeved that all the waves look the same. When i was a lad each wave had its own character...
 
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