So, what is wrong with the RNLI?

[toad_oftoadhall]

Off Course, clipped on and wearing a lifejacket/harness. The question however remains unanswered. If a crew member for whatever reason should go overboard and not be attached to the boat Would you rather they were wearing a lifejacket or not?

...and my answer still stands. I'd rather they were wearing a harness and clipped on. So I guess you'll have to consider that a 'not'. The size of the cable jack stays on an RNLI boat suggests their crews think the same even if their office wallers have go themselves a bit mixed up.

 

[Old Troll]

Old Troll

Everyone is rightly entitled to their own views and opinions. I shall continue to think positive about the RNLI and advise the wearing of the self inflating lifeacket at all times. Even when stepping ashore with ropes, climbing harbour ladders, working on deck in fast tidal estuarys and when in the inflatable.
Good Luck

 

[pvb]

...and my answer still stands. I'd rather they were wearing a harness and clipped on.

You raise an interesting point. If the aim is to prevent problems, then a harness is indisputably the first choice. All the RNLI doctrine is based on "if someone falls overboard". Why not make that the focus of preventative action? You can stop people falling overboard by making them wear a harness.

 

[Searush]

You raise an interesting point. If the aim is to prevent problems, then a harness is indisputably the first choice. All the RNLI doctrine is based on "if someone falls overboard". Why not make that the focus of preventative action? You can stop people falling overboard by making them wear a harness.

Aren't the majority of deaths from small craft - like dinghies & small fishing mobos (eg Shetlands) where life lines are of limited value. Fall out of your tender & a lifeline is more likely to capsize the dink than save you. Also many are stuff like falling off pontoons & rock ledges (typically fishing again).

Consequently the idea to encourage Lifejackets is design to reach EVERYBODY and especially the new & inexperienced boaters. Lifelines are probably only effective for a keel boat or relatively substantial MoBo (say 20'+) and this is what the more experienced sailors are likely to use.

 

[maxi77]

...and my answer still stands. I'd rather they were wearing a harness and clipped on. So I guess you'll have to consider that a 'not'. The size of the cable jack stays on an RNLI boat suggests their crews think the same even if their office wallers have go themselves a bit mixed up.

Indeed, but many a slip between cup and mouth. Life is never quite as one planned, and disater can strike when least expected, so our policy is auto lifejackets (with crotch straps, hoods and light) with a built in harness.

The RNLI campaign has done several things which I view as positive. Firstly it has focused on maintainance etc for lifejackets making those that are worn more likely to do the job they were intended to do. Secondly it has once again stimulated the debate on risk, risk taking and general safety. So on the basis their remit is to save life at sea by making us think more about equipment maintainance, and about managing risk perhaps they are fullfilling their remit and at the same time reducing the risk to their volunteers by encouraging us to behave in a safe manner.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I have looked at the map, and I concede that the density of lifeboat stations is less than along the more populated and busy coastlines and this must be of concern for those who sail in that magnificent area (something I look forward to in the future). Nevertheless, assuming that you fell into trouble at a likely but remote location, how long would it take a a lifeboat to reach you? Suitably equipped, would you expect to be able to survive until it arrived?

At least five hours in many places, and a heck of a long longer if the "local" boat was already out helping someone else. And no, I would not.

Maybe the RNLI's next campaign should be "Only ever sail within half an hour of a lifeboat station". It would make every bit as much sense as "Only ever swim at beaches with lifeguards".

 

[pvb]

Aren't the majority of deaths from small craft - like dinghies & small fishing mobos (eg Shetlands) where life lines are of limited value. Fall out of your tender & a lifeline is more likely to capsize the dink than save you. Also many are stuff like falling off pontoons & rock ledges (typically fishing again).

Well, we don't know, because the RNLI thought police won't say. They talk in bravado terms about "if our guys bring back a few more survivors rather than dead bodies", but if you ask how many dead bodies, they won't say. And if you were then to ask what proportion of the dead bodies recovered by the RNLI were the result of air crashes, cliff falls, suicidal jumps, I'd imagine the wall of silence would be impressive. My guess is that there are very few deaths from leisure boating.

 

[Ubergeekian]

As for lifejackets. It is standing orders onboard my yacht with RYA customers or when sailing with friends that lifejackets are worn at all times. If you do not want to wear a lifejacket for yourself then wear it for others onboard, family etc. What will you say to the coroner at an inquest if a crew member is lost and was not wearing a lifejacket.
If a crew member goes overboard in a running sea with darkness falling. Would you rather they were wearing a self inflating lifejacket or not?

I'd rather they didn't fall overboard in the first place, which is why I insist on harnesses in bad weather, after dark or when on deck alone. Do you insist on harnesses and tethers as rigorously as you insist on lifejackets?

Edited to add: "At all times", eh? Does that include while sleeping? In the heads or shower? For dinner in the cockpit in a marina?

 

[Lakesailor]

It is standing orders onboard my yacht with RYA customers or when sailing with friends that lifejackets are worn at all times.

Absolutely fine.
I wouldn't be sailing with you unless I decided to wear one.

 

[timbartlett]

As for lifejackets. It is standing orders onboard my yacht with RYA customers or when sailing with friends that lifejackets are worn at all times. If you do not want to wear a lifejacket for yourself then wear it for others onboard, family etc. What will you say to the coroner at an inquest if a crew member is lost and was not wearing a lifejacket.
If a crew member goes overboard in a running sea with darkness falling. Would you rather they were wearing a self inflating lifejacket or not?

"a running sea with darkness falling" is not at all the same as "at all times"

In today's tick-box culture, our ability to assess risk is atrophying. By treating everything as though it is dangerous, we are breeding a generation that cannot recognise real danger or how to deal with it.

 

[DogWatch]

Isn't it odd that people never fall overboard and drown during the hours of daylight?

 

[DogWatch]

"a running sea with darkness falling" is not at all the same as "at all times"

In today's tick-box culture, our ability to assess risk is atrophying. By treating everything as though it is dangerous, we are breeding a generation that cannot recognise real danger or how to deal with it.

Presumably you refuse to wear a seatbelt in the car, obviously it makes you drive more dangerously when you are wearing it?

Taking personal risk is fine, such as the many (read most) small motor boats heading out of harbour during the summer with a bunch of young children all trussed up in safety gear but not the dad, him not wishing to look silly or come over to people like you as too nanny state risk aware. Obviously, death from exposure is far preferable to the orphans siblings as their dad can't get back to the boat if he went over.

Maybe your family would be relieved if you went over without a jacket and disappeared, but for most people their families would prefer they swallowed a bit of pride and took enough care to make sure they don't if at all possible destroy a plethora of lives, it's not just their own.

Of course it probably wont happen, you probably will never slip over board, unlike most men in their mid fifties you have the body and adrenaline of an eighteen year old athlete. Remember the highly experienced skipper of the yacht Chris Evans was on, who drowned that warm summer evening because the people left on board panicked and fell to pieces..

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

But where opinions differ, I give more weight to those that are based on fact.

Well said. In fact it's going in my sig.

 

[TimfromMersea]

what's wrong with the old RORC rule, that if you are wearing oilskins you wear your lifejacket, plus when on deck in the darkness. That's what we stick to.

 

[chewi]

Finally, the Institution can only improve if people complain.

Really?
My work promotes continuous improvement by suggestion. There is no need for a complaint.
I have read similar comments elsewhere from management geeks and bean-counters like you can't improve what you can't measure.

Also untrue.

 

[sailingmonkey]

I think it's ultimately up to you as an individual to weigh up the risk. I've been sailing since I could stand, and I can count on one hand the number of occasions when I've worn a life jacket on our boat, because I know the boat and the area we sail in well enough to know when I need to be a little extra cautious. However, I've always worn one when dinghy sailing because the chance of capsizing is far greater, and so there's more risk of things going awry.

I think the RNLI are a fantastic organisation, who do far more good than harm. I agree that their enforcement of lifejackets is probably a little overwhelming for experienced sailors; but bear in mind a large proportion of people rescued from boats - I would imagine - are inexperienced, and may not know precisely what they're doing. If you're a confident sailor, you'll disregard their advice anyway; but if you're a novice who thinks he can handle a boat and be 100% safe, a little push to wear a lifejacket is probably a good thing.

 

[lw395]

I suspect the sudden take-up of LJ wearing came about when an influx of relatively cheap imported inflatable LJs made it affordable and convenient for the average sailor.

Prior to that, your choices were - cheap boyancy aids, bulky + expensive solid core LJs, or even more expensive hybrid LJs (as described by previous posters).

I suspect this is untrue.

I think the acceptance of generally wearing a life jacket has filtered through from dinghy sailing, where it took hold in the late 60's/early 70's, due to Elvstrom and others marketing 'waistcoat' type BA's. Previously, LJ's were too cumbersome, and dinghy sailing involved a lot less 'falling in the water'. But with the rise of trapeze and performance boats, falling in became part of the game. This is also when wetsuits were 'popularised'.
Inflatable LJ's have been around a long time. Offshore sailors used to put them on at night when scared, and partly inflate them when cold and really scared. It must be true I heard it at the club bar! I think the first ones were RAF surplus after WW2?
In the following decades, buoyancy wearing has filtered up the sport through keelboats and inshore racers, also powerboating, where racers get flung out when it goes wrong.

Some high profile deaths have also raised awareness, as people got more adventurous, did more short handed racing etc.

In real terms, auto/harness LJ's are much cheaper than ever, I paid over £70 ea 15 years ago IIRC. Mind you many of the recent ones are badly designed by comparison. The older ones worked properly without crutch straps for one thing. In real terms is that the price of a deckvest today?
Just been re-reading Elvstrom's book, his adivce is to take care when wearing a lot of jumpers over your inflatable JL, among other things!

I don't think the death rate from yachting or dinghy sailing is high enough for meaningful stats. Most dinghy sailing deaths are unfortunate combinations of events that are hard to prevent.

I'm very happy wearing my dinghy BA, when I need it, I know it works, no moving parts to rely on for one thing! Not so sure about some of the inflatable LJ's you see corroding away.

 

[Old Troll]

Old Troll

Do I insist on harness and tether being worn as well as lifejackets. The answer is yes. Always clip on and wear the combined lifejacket/ harness and tether with crotch strap, light etc. One hand for the boat and one hand for yourself.
Interestingly in over twenty years of running RYA sailing courses and as a Mate on sail training ships as well as private sailing with friends I have never had adverse comment from anyone on their being asked to wear a lifejacket/ harness. It is a genuine ask which is in best intentions and we owe it to self and crew to be safe at sea by all means available to us.

 

[peterb]

My old LJ (together with a foam plastic head) is in use for MOB exercises. I should have read the whole thread before posting the details here!

 

[oldfatgit]

At least five hours in many places, and a heck of a long longer if the "local" boat was already out helping someone else. And no, I would not.

Maybe the RNLI's next campaign should be "Only ever sail within half an hour of a lifeboat station". It would make every bit as much sense as "Only ever swim at beaches with lifeguards".

Interesting, the fact that you can sail so far from assistance is remarkable. Now, I am not considering the long distance passages across the North Sea or Atlantic, which are obviously outsdie of what we are talking about, but rather sailing the British and Irish Coastal waters. But, if that is the case then I feel that there is a case for trying to influence the RNLI to establish some full time lifeboat stations based on the Spurn Head model. Particularly if there is demand for those gaps to be filled. I'm not a local but if I were then I'd be enquiring if that was possible.

Anyway, I'm off for a couple of weeks sailing, sadly not the West Coast of Scotland, and so would like to depart with the following questions. Do you not see any merits in the RNLI? Is there nothing which you consider could be made into the kind of service you would wish to see and support?