So, what is wrong with the RNLI?

[nyx2k]

the aforementoined post from rnli sea safety officer mention newcomers to the hobby, which seems to suggest that there is a dispropornate number of newcomers without life protection devices.
also they wouldnt need to subsidise any jackets but just sell them at cost.

i already have two 150n man ljs and 3 bouyancy aids for the children but all my boating is in chi harbour or if very very flat calm we go to the witterings occasionly

 

[oldfatgit]

But, as I pointed out, most lifejackets don't have hoods (or crotch straps, or lights). Do a UK Google search for lifejacket and the key suppliers are mainly selling lifejackets without these features. Shouldn't the RNLI be campaigning to get minimum standards for lifejackets?

Yep, I think it is a very good idea. Perhaps they should.

It's a business, and "fair" doesn't enter into it. Do you think someone setting up a new retail business would decide not to because it "would not be fair" to other retailers? If the RNLI were running their retail business sensibly, they'd only offer RNLI-branded items anyway, so it wouldn't be detrimental to other brands - it would simply be a competitor.

Even their commercial arm is constrained by some aspects of the charity law, also they want to keep the commercial elements of boating sympathetic to their cause. If they were competing as a specialist safety gear supplier, they might not be subject to complaint, however, any wider than that and I am sure they would be accused of unfair competition. Actually, though, I am sure that they would rather keep all commercial operators in the marine industry sympathetic to the RNLI cause; including chandlers whether big or small.

 

[pvb]

Actually, though, I am sure that they would rather keep all commercial operators in the marine industry sympathetic to the RNLI cause; including chandlers whether big or small.

Why? What proportion of their income is donations from commercial operators or chandlers? I'd imagine it's very little, if any.

 

[sailorman]

Why? What proportion of their income is donations from commercial operators or chandlers? I'd imagine it's very little, if any.

I bet they get a "good deal" from Musto et al

 

[pvb]

I bet they get a "good deal" from Musto et al

So what? We're talking about what's supposed to be a business - and a big one at that! They should be selling RNLI-branded safety products, not "Rabbit Topiary" products.

 

[prv]

it could be considered by some to be unfair to pay 50-100 pounds for a life jacket especialy when they need 5 or 6 just as they are starting out with a 500 pound boat and engine from ebay or is this not a concern because they havent got a 250k boat. [...] if the rnli sold a basic jacket for beginners in the £30 range then all would be bought before the new purchase saw the water with several children on board

I've known someone in this exact position. He was lucky enough to get the use of a RIB (been "stored" in a bush outside for years, owner said if he could get it running again he could use it for the summer). After a few days' work (and belting the seized steering ram with a club hammer) he had it approximately seaworthy. Built some paddles in case of engine failure, out of lengths of 2x2 with squares of strandboard on the ends. But no lifejackets or buoyancy aids - he asked me if my parents still had some from my childhood dinghy-sailing days, but they'd got rid of them. So he headed down to the coast anyway.

He did in the end buy three cheap XM manual jackets before the second trip (not as a result of any accident on the first!). I know he did a Day Skipper course free or very cheap as a teenager via the Cadets, which is probably why he felt he needed to pay out for the jackets. Someone else in the same situation may well not have done.

Pete

 

[DogWatch]

So what? We're talking about what's supposed to be a business - and a big one at that! They should be selling RNLI-branded safety products, not "Rabbit Topiary" products.

Do you actually have an opinion, or are you just bored now and fighting for the sake of fighting?

 

[KenMcCulloch]

....... I do have a bit of an issue with the actual content of the current advert that I have seen though:
EVEN IN SUMMER, COLD WATER SHOCK CAN KILL YOU IN MINUTES. ALWAYS WEAR YOUR LIFEJACKET.
Does the life jacket warm the water up? Or does it insulate me from the cold? Or does it change my metabolism? Or does it just keep my corpse afloat for longer?

What it does, crucially, is keep your head out of the water while you go through the gasp reflex phase of suddenly being in cold water. Without the LJ you will very likely start inhaling water and be dead 'in minutes'.

 

[pvb]

Do you actually have an opinion, or are you just bored now and fighting for the sake of fighting?

You see, this is the whole problem with any RNLI-related thread. As soon as anyone asks awkward questions, the RNLI supporters go on the offensive and get, well, offensive.

And the end result is that you do the RNLI a disservice.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

so you are saying that if the rnli sold an lj with their own branding then that would be unfair, then so what.

Agree. If it's true that a lot of people are dying because they don't have (or don't wear) LJ's then the RNLI might as well give a load away free or at cost or at a discount. If that kills the LJ trade then I'm sure they'd view that as a small price to pay for saving a large number of lives. I can't imagine the RNLI offering beach patrol services does the Beach Patrol industry much good - they think it's useful so they do it.

Providing cheap LJ's is such an obvious thing to do, that you start to wonder if the RNLI have looked at the cost of providing LJ's at cost and decided the safety benefit isn't sufficient to bother. Which would be somewhat ironic, and in keeping with my guess which would be that almost no leisure sailors die for lack of a life jacket.

PS: Possibly a digression, but it occurs to me this is quite easy to measure. Before inflatable LJ's came out nobody wore an LJ. Since then a huge number of people have started to wear LJs. So has there been a massive decline in deaths since the mid 90's when IIRC inflatable LJs first started to appear?

 

[oldfatgit]

So what? We're talking about what's supposed to be a business - and a big one at that! They should be selling RNLI-branded safety products, not "Rabbit Topiary" products.

The RNLI is a charity, a large charity which is run in a professional businesslike manner. It sells stuff through a commercial branch which equated to 4% of its income, though I am sure they would be happy for it to get bigger to spread risk. Nevertheless, most of what they sell is about promoting the organisation in the eyes of the public. Most of their shops are staffed by volunteers. If they were to shift to selling safety gear that would be a change which I am sure they are capable of, but is not in their plans at this time. Maybe it will be in the future.

 

[Searush]

(snip)
PS: Possibly a digression, but it occurs to me this is quite easy to measure. Before inflatable LJ's came out nobody wore an LJ. Since then a huge number of people have started to wear LJs. So has there been a massive decline in deaths since the mid 90's when IIRC inflatable LJs first started to appear?

Not true. Beaufort have been making inflatable (manual CO2) LJ's that fit like a collar folded up since the 1950's (possibly earlier). How do I know? I have several made by them for the BOAC (British Overseas Airways Corporation) - if you can remember them you are likely to be a pensioner. They still pass their annual check by staying inflated for 24hrs & the cylinders are easily replaced. Most of the salt water battery units have corroded connections now tho.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Not true. Beaufort have been making inflatable (manual CO2) LJ's that fit like a collar folded up since the 1950's (possibly earlier). How do I know? I have several made by them for the BOAC (British Overseas Airways Corporation) - if you can remember them you are likely to be a pensioner. They still pass their annual check by staying inflated for 24hrs & the cylinders are easily replaced. Most of the salt water battery units have corroded connections now tho.

I think you're playing fast and loose with the definition of life jacket. I can't find a reference but I'm 99 per cent certain my memory is right and that only 'rigid' foam 'life jackets' could get a 'kite' mark until the 90's some time. The definition of Life Jacket required it to have a kite mark. If it didn't have a 'kite' mark it wasn't/isn't a life jacket. If it didn't have a kite mark it was just a bouyancy aid. So there were no inflatable LJ's 'till the 90's some time.

Maybe you're younger than you look but don't you recall when life jackets were rigid and therefore nobody wore them. Instead everyone just wore harnesses (with no integrated LJ)???

I will try to find a reference.

 

[BrendanS]

an artificial definition, as it would only apply to the UK, not to general usage.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

an artificial definition, as it would only apply to the UK, not to general usage.

Just phoned my brother and his memory is the same as mine. I can't find any evidence online right now, but give me a couple of days and I'll come up with a date. There was a point in the 90's where inflatable bouyancy devices suddenly became eligable to be life jackets. Until then if it was inflatable it was a bouyancy aid.

Brendan, you're no spring chicken - you *must* remember this happening. You must remember foam life jackets which were too bulky to use and lived under the saloon seats and webbing harnesses that were your first line of defence. Then inflatable LJ's turned up and it all changed.

Of course it could all be in our imagination, but I strongly doubt it.

 

[BrendanS]

Of course I remember bulky foam life jackets, but that doesn't mean kite mark is a definition. Kite marks only apply in the UK

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Of course I remember bulky foam life jackets, but that doesn't mean kite mark is a definition. Kite marks only apply in the UK

I'm 99 per cent certain that the kite mark was part of the definition in the 90's and I'm 99 per sure the CE mark is part of the definition now. If it doesn't have the right CE mark it aint a life jacket, it's just an aid to flotation or whatever you wanna call it. In the same way if it didn't have kite mark it wasn't an LJ. And inflatable's couldn't get the kite mark and were not routinely seen on yachts.

Just out of interest if you don't think that the definition of life jacket changed to allow inflatable life jackets in the 90's why do you think all of a sudden life jackets change out of all recognition in no time. A bag of air aint exactly high tech.

Mind you, is there any point in arguing about this? I can't expect you to prove a negative so it's really for me to to verify my memory.

 

[BrendanS]

Totally UK centric. No kite marks outside UK, so why would development of life jackets be related to kite marks? US and european countries amongst others, develop life jackets too,and they have no kite marks

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Totally UK centric. No kite marks outside UK, so why would development of life jackets be related to kite marks? US and european countries amongst others, develop life jackets too,and they have no kite marks

I was sailing in the UK at the time!

Current UK standards on life jackets came in 15/05/94. Which fits exaclty with when I (and my brother) think we recall the change occuring and inflatable LJ's being permitted.

I'm sure that's not coincidence.

All I need to do now is find the standard it superceded.

 

[BrendanS]

so no one outside the UK wears life jackets? I give up. good night