Small twenty foot ish all weather sailing boats any names?

[Buck Turgidson]

That is the


This one?

Thanks Neal. That is the video I was trying to post the link. You are a genius. I have owned my If boat for 20 years. I sometimes put her in mothballs when I temporarily buy a larger boat for a year or two. I took her out of mothball this year for another "back to reality" session. She is perfect although a bit small at 25 feet. There are a lot of other videos on youtube that show why more folkboats are still made and spawned a lot of copies than any other boat on this planet. Incedentally, an IF boat can carry full sale in a force 7.
[/QUOTE]
So long as it's flat. Bit of a sea state and she would be dipping her spreaders ;-)

 

[Wansworth]

Since we are talking now of smaller boats, I must mention the Leisure 17. Been out in ours in a 6 gusting 7. It was not confortable but it survived. and one has crossed the Atlantic., again I would not recommend buying one for that passage.

the OP still has not said if he is just looking for a capable day sailor, or something with good live aboard accommodation, and for how many people.

Not much more than basic accommodation that can be expected in a twenty footer for two maximum and capable of voyaging as per original post

 

[BurnitBlue]

The point I wanted to make but got sidetracked in not loading the video is that it is extremely important in a small boat to be able to carry sail in strong winds. Reefing on a tiny leaping deck is dangerous. I have often in my IFboat carried on quite safely when the winds reach gale force. Many purists critisize overpowering a boat and say I should reef early. That is a good plan for a larger boat where it may be safer to reef on a deck with small heeling angle. I very rarely reef my Ifboat because she puts her gunnels under very quickly even in a force 5.

Look again at that video. She is already reefed yet her gunnels are underwater. It would not be much worse wih full sail. Now imagine trying to reef at that typical small boat heel even in sheltered lake waters. I know my boat and holding a small boat head to wind without her blowing off and heeling would be risky. She is too small and too lightweigt, an that applies toall (most) boats the O P is considering. This is of course necessary on many lesser boats but I contend that my ifboat can take full sail without losing her mast yet still be manageable in high winds until i get to shelter. If I must reduce sail i can take the main down quickly and an Ifboat will tramp along under jib alone. Avoid having to reef in a small boat.

 

[ProDave]

The point I wanted to make but got sidetracked in not loading the video is that it is extremely important in a small boat to be able to carry sail in strong winds. Reefing on a tiny leaping deck is dangerous. I have often in my IFboat carried on quite safely when the winds reach gale force. Many purists critisize overpowering a boat and say I should reef early. That is a good plan for a larger boat where it may be safer to reef on a deck with small heeling angle. I very rarely reef my Ifboat because she puts her gunnels under very quickly even in a force 5.

Look again at that video. She is already reefed yet her gunnels are underwater. It would not be much worse wih full sail. Now imagine trying to reef at that typical small boat heel even in sheltered lake waters. I know my boat and holding a small boat head to wind without her blowing off and heeling would be risky. She is too small and too lightweigt, an that applies toall (most) boats the O P is considering. This is of course necessary on many lesser boats but I contend that my ifboat can take full sail without losing her mast yet still be manageable in high winds until i get to shelter. If I must reduce sail i can take the main down quickly and an Ifboat will tramp along under jib alone. Avoid having to reef in a small boat.

I would be interested to know what wind speed that video was taken in? the sea looked flat so I would have said no more than F3, in which case if that's only F3, she looks rather tender. If it's above F3 why do the waves not suggest that? confused.

The easiest way to head to wind to reef the main is heave to. I have only tried that in 2 boats and in both cases the boat will sit stable while you reef the main.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Not much more than basic accommodation that can be expected in a twenty footer for two maximum and capable of voyaging as per original post

One of the nice things about - and not unique too - the Westerly Jouster is having a separate forecabin. It means that things feel a bit pokier below decks, but for one person it's nice to have separate sleeping accommodation and for two it's nice for whoever is off-duty on long trips to be able to curl up and sleep in seclusion. That's why I went for Victoria 26 (which has a forecabin) over a Francis 26 (which has a sleeping platform).

The point I wanted to make but got sidetracked in not loading the video is that it is extremely important in a small boat to be able to carry sail in strong winds. Reefing on a tiny leaping deck is dangerous.

My Jouster was easy to reef single-handed. She had roller reefing on the main, which didn't set the sail terribly well but which could be done very quickly while standing in the companionway. No need to go forward at all. I only had hanked on jibs. Chaging them was a bit more of an adventure, but I rigged two sets of sheets and could change jib (too skint for a tiller pilot) while the boat drifted downwind in five minutes or so. My policy was always to reduce sail by one over night, so if I was using the genoa I would change to working jib in the evening and if I was using the working jib I would change to storm jib.

If I had a boat that size again I would make sure that both sails could be reefed from the cockpit or companionway.

 

[Bajansailor]

Wansworth, you could follow in Henry Pigott's wake - he bought a standard 19'6" Colvic Watson hull, outfitted her with nice accommodation, a big diesel engine and a Chinese junk rig, and then he went on many memorable voyages with Glory, including a trip around the world, and a return voyage from Poole to San Francisco via Panama to attend a birthday party. Yes, a birthday party. He arrived in time, stayed on for maybe a week or two afterwards, and then sailed back home, again via Panama. It would probably have been easier in the long run to hop on a plane, but Henry had a lot more fun going by sea.



Some other boats you could consider -
Pacific Seacraft Flicka - 20' on deck :
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/flicka-20



Or her bigger sister Allegra -
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/allegra-24



Or Allegra's near sister Dana -
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/dana-24-pacific-seacraft

 

[Wansworth]

Thanks for posting photos

 

[Greenheart]

I don't expect anyone has suggested the Westerly 22...it's not a boat I'd thought of much, as a long distance adventurer...

...until someone on the forum posted this photo in the last 12 months. I guess gaff rig can do it for any hull and deck!

 

[Bajansailor]

I don't expect anyone has suggested the Westerly 22...it's not a boat I'd thought of much, as a long distance adventurer...

...until someone on the forum posted this photo in the last 12 months. I guess gaff rig can do it for any hull and deck!

Dan, that someone was me - the photo above is quite iconic, and was taken in Admiralty Bay, Bequia.. I am sure that it has inspired many other intrepid sailors to go off across oceans in small boats.

The photo is in this article (link below) by Simon Baddely, who sailed Young Tiger across the Atlantic in 1966, and was later reunited with her (or her present owner rather) 50 years later.
'A friend in a field'

I first came across Young Tiger when reading a copy of Roving Commissions about 30 years ago, and it had his account of his transatlantic passage in it.
There are some excerpts from it here -
'Voyage to America': Young Tiger, part one

Edit - re the gaff rig, I think she was / is a gunter rig (like a Mirror dinghy) rather than a gaff in the conventional sense?

 

[Bajansailor]

I just came across a mention of this 10' 'ocean cruiser' 'Yankee Girl' in this post on the Boat Design Forum -
Why I'm Following Sven Yrvind



Here is an article about her 54 day passage across the North Atlantic from Virginia Beach to Falmouth in 1979 -
July 24, 1979: Across the Atlantic in a 10-foot sailboat

And then two years later, the same skipper sailed her across the Pacific from California to Australia in 153 days -
TEN FEET ACROSS THE PACIFIC Gerry Spiess heads Yankee Girl toward Hawaii

Have a look also at this long thread (29 pages!) about 'small' sailing yachts on the Boat Design Forum -
AIT Around In Ten

 

[BurnitBlue]

I would be interested to know what wind speed that video was taken in? the sea looked flat so I would have said no more than F3, in which case if that's only F3, she looks rather tender. If it's above F3 why do the waves not suggest that? confused.

The easiest way to head to wind to reef the main is heave to. I have only tried that in 2 boats and in both cases the boat will sit stable while you reef the main.

Yes all narrow beam yachts are tender. There must be enough ballast (ratio) to stop her going further. Sea state is difficult to capture on "film". I dont know the reason why a stretch of water sheltered by trees seems calmer than shelter behind high buildings. I recall a few times when the waves in a marina were sometimes worse than the waves outside. Maybe hard vertical buildings give eddies and funnels while trees are lower, bendy, and extend inland further than marina buildings. There is another ifboat video called "ifboat under pressure" that shows her screaming along at 11knots under sheltered waters in a full gale sometimes with the boom in the water. Not one drop shipped aboard.

Anyway, the boat must be able to sail upwind in high winds not just manage a sail assisted drift downwind. People who sail ten foot stunt boats are basically dishonest and use the perception of small size to give them hero status. As always the passengers and crew of even Titanic size steel monsters are keen to jump in a ten foot rubber boat when things turn bad. A phrase I heard in USA says it all. "Stunt boats are bug-lights for weirdoes".

 

[Greenheart]

Thanks Bajan, that's my evening reading sorted.

 

[ProDave]

Yes all narrow beam yachts are tender. There must be enough ballast (ratio) to stop her going further. Sea state is difficult to capture on "film". I dont know the reason why a stretch of water sheltered by trees seems calmer than shelter behind high buildings. I recall a few times when the waves in a marina were sometimes worse than the waves outside. Maybe hard vertical buildings give eddies and funnels while trees are lower, bendy, and extend inland further than marina buildings. There is another ifboat video called "ifboat under pressure" that shows her screaming along at 11knots under sheltered waters in a full gale sometimes with the boom in the water. Not one drop shipped aboard.

Anyway, the boat must be able to sail upwind in high winds not just manage a sail assisted drift downwind. People who sail ten foot stunt boats are basically dishonest and use the perception of small size to give them hero status. As always the passengers and crew of even Titanic size steel monsters are keen to jump in a ten foot rubber boat when things turn bad. A phrase I heard in USA says it all. "Stunt boats are bug-lights for weirdoes".

I posed the wind speed question, because for me it's not so much wind speed that makes me determine that it is too rough for sailing, it's the sea state. And in that video the sea looked pretty flat and the boat was sailing "smooth" with little slamming,

Where I am if there was enough wind to get the boat on it's ear like that, there would be a very rough choppy sea with white horses breaking and the boat would be bouncing and slamming and very uncomfortable. I am just surprised to see that much wind without an aparently matching sea state.

 

[PeteCooper]

Edit - re the gaff rig, I think she was / is a gunter rig (like a Mirror dinghy) rather than a gaff in the conventional sense?

There was also a bermudan rig option - which sailed a lot better.

 

[Greenheart]

Where I am if there was enough wind to get the boat on its ear like that, there would be a very rough choppy sea with white horses breaking and the boat would be bouncing and slamming and very uncomfortable. I am just surprised to see that much wind without an apparently matching sea state.

My mate sent me this clip from the Pont Aven as she charged up the Channel yesterday at 25 knots, pushed by 35 knots gusting 50.

The sea state isn't as rough as I'd have expected, although it might look worse from the cockpit of a twenty-footer. ?

 

[NealB]

My mate sent me this clip from the Pont Aven as she charged up the Channel yesterday at 25 knots, pushed by 35 knots gusting 50.

The sea state isn't as rough as I'd have expected, although it might look worse from the cockpit of a twenty-footer. ?

The Crouch was pretty lumpy yesterday afternoon, as I ran (on foot: no spinnaker needed) along the seawall out to Holliwell Point.

The beat back, along Marsh Road was a slow, hard slog.

 

[KINGFISHER 8]

Vertue ... you can even buy a plastic one if you have to. Proven and very safe. Read the history on the Vertue website.

VertueYachts.com

 

[BurnitBlue]

I also think that a sea looks much worse when looking upwind. The old windjammers erected a screen behind the helmsman when they were running downwind to stop the helmsman dying og fright. Also Dave, the Baltic is flat so no downward swooping gusts from katabatic forces. The ifboat in the video was beating upwind with the camera pointing downwind. No whitehorses from that angle.

 

[Frogmogman]

Muscadet.
Still very popular in France:

Muscadet - the French "peoples' boat"

.

The Muscadet is a good shout. They're great little boats, and it's what many French racers cut their teeth on back in the day. Still an active class in France.

For a more modern french offering, the Jeanneau Sun 2000 is a good little boat, and if you were to go a bit bigger, the Archambault Surprise is terrific.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I rest my case. If a 25 foot boat is needed for whatever reason then sailing performance is paramount. Forget interior comfort. At that size you cannot win. In my opinion more FUN is got from the satisfaction of a perfect sail than from an eight foot galley. Like that perfect golf swing, the flawless mountain climb etc. Whether a wayfarwer dinghy or an Ifboat it is what sailing is all about. Again my opinion only.