Small boats that sail well ?

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w1ndwatcher

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Dear all

I invite your recommendations for us for modestly-priced boats that sail well, particularly to windward.

The length is to be up to about 22 feet.

It will live on a swinging mooring, which dries some of the time, in Chichester harbour. Our kind of sailing is principally day sailing, with the odd bit of overnighting. I dream of sailing around the Isle of Wight, and across the channel, though whether this will ever come to pass I don't know. I greatly dislike having to use the engine, hence the desire for superior sailing performance. I realise that fin keelers are probably going to offer the best pointing, but as a compromise, drop-keel may be the right thing for us. Hence, the boats that have caught my eye so far are: Seal 22, Seal Sinbad, Anderson 22, Hunter Medina, Prelude. Would anyone like to make any suggestions / comments ? Mind you I remember reading an article some years ago that suggested that with the right design, bilge-keelers could sail very well, ditto lee-boarders.

Thanks

w1ndwatcher.
 
w1ndwatcher said:
Mind you I remember reading an article some years ago that suggested that with the right design, bilge-keelers could sail very well, ditto lee-boarders.
Click to expand...

That can be the case with very well design boats - it would be worth adding the Hunter Duette and Red Fox 200 to your list, although both are more expensive than those you mention.
 
You might have to go to Ireland or Scotland to find one but a Ruffian 23 will outsail anything that has been listed so far.
 
My Vivacity 20 sails perfectly well, although is not AFAIK regarded as being any good to windward. I've sailed from Emsworth to Cowes and Lymington and had no problems, using the engine only for the marina bits and to fight the tide out of Chi harbour - the alternative if wind and tide are against you is to stay in Chi harbour, regardless of what boat you're in.
I would set a budget and look at the boats available locally then pick the one in best condition or that you like best. You'll probably find that if you're not planning to race then all of them sail fine, otherwise they would not have been produced in any quantity. If you are planning to race then ignore that and forget the twin keeler idea.
If you're ever in the marina come and say hi - I'm there most weekends unless I'm out sailing somewhere :)
 
sailed a 21ft long keeler with bilge plates - (Debutante) - and she would do alright to windward with a lot attention - and was a great fun boat to sail - and with triple keels the worry of grounding was less

the key thing though with sailing boats this size is always the tide - having started cruising in the East Coast I am always surprised how many yachts on the South Coast/Solent go against the tide - but there again a lot if them motor -

if you are a committed sailor the key element in going to windward in a small boat is always going to be the strength and direction of the tide -
 
Thankyou Uber, jeez I'm getting an intro' now !!! :)

Has the OP seen the owners association I run ?

www.anderson22class.co.uk


There is a fair bit of info' there, but feel free to contact me.

My boat is on a drying mooring in Chichester Harbour, if desired I'm sure we could organise a sail - as Ubergeekian also knows, my boat is NOT for sale, this is for a demo'.

I must confess I don't know much about the Ruffian 23, or rather I did but I've forgotten it; care to enlighten me please ?

As for 'boats which sail well under 22', I think it fair to say an Oliver Lee design of one kind or another will fit the bill; they actually sail well, not just fast...

There is a small site dedicated to Oliver Lee in the 'community' section of these forums, see the darker blue 'toolbar' towards the top of this page, above .Practical Boat owner', select 'community', 'social groups', though it could do with more info.

Edited to say, OK I've just googled the Ruffian, as I thought a nice boat; fin keel though, so berthing / mooring her in Chichester would cost serious money, especially in view of her value ( which around here would be peanuts for this reason ).

I've tried deep water moorings from Chichester to Portsmouth, and was so deeply unimpressed I sold the fin keeler and bought my Anderson back ( my main reason though was I missed the A22 and her qualities ).

Deep water moorings are usually restricted by tidal access for the tender, and I found were so far out and exposed that it required a serious tender, effectively another boat to run, and it was all a very great deal less pleasant than sitting at a sheltered drying mooring a couple of minutes row from shore, club & pub...
 
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Hurley 22 ...very good.

Corribbee. But you'll be alarmed how flexible the hulls of the bilge keelers are!
 
Bit pricey maybe

Dehler22.jpg




Tim
 
Alfie168

The Dehler 25 is a nice boat for light weekend use, but way overpriced, underbuilt & underballasted; the water ballast to aid trailing does nothing for room below and relatively little for righting.

I have been alongside Dehlers of various sizes, the interesting thing was despite completely different mast step arrangements, 3 were suffering collapse of the step, or deck ( 25 ) through mast compression loads; rigs staying up seemed to be regarded a bonus, but maybe that was hard racing.

Not my idea of an offshore boat, but probably very good indeed as a trailer sailer, a lot better than an Anderson 22 for that.
 
In that size, nothing that I know of will beat a J/22 to windward...I sailed it's larger sibling the J/24 for years.

j22leeaft.jpg


http://www.jboats.com/j22/

EDIT : oops,sorry, missed the drying mooring bit. Hmmm... And the other posters are right, getting out of Chichester harbor without an engine can be rough if the tide is against you, period, especially in light winds with motorboats screaming past you and slamming you with their wake.
 
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I do the annual work on a friend's Prelude bilge-keeler. Sailing her you wouldn't know she wasn't a fin keel. Not that I have sailed the fin keel version, but compared to other sub 20' fin keel boats she seems very good.
Just my impression of course, but closewindedness is a prerequisite for a long lake with generally a north or a south beat to make. Otherwise you can spend all afternoon in the same spot.
 
...my boat lives on a mud mooring just across from Seajet's so I can confirm the wise words about needing to be able to take the mud to moor cheaply in Chi Harbour.. you'll also need a motor - outboard will do - for punching against the not inconsiderable tides, when the wind is blowing the wrong way down a tide constrained channel..

...in addition to the other boats mentioned I would add the Leisure 20 (which is on my list of "next" boats to look at), I would second the Vivacity, and the chap in the boatyard next to me last winter had a Westerly Jouster which was very nice.....
 
A bit smaller than you have in mind but the Ridgeway Pirate, 18ft sails like a demon with the swinging iron keel down which gives it about 4ft 6ins draft, which is pretty deep for such a little boat. The keel goes into a iron box which provides the rest of the ballast and gives a square base to dry out on. Perhaps the Prelude is available with a swing iron keel?
 
Missed so far are the Hunter Sonata and the Hunter Europa 19 perhaps a Corribee also,and a Snapdragon 23 all fine sailing yachts with good performance to windward and all reasonably PY handicapped for club racing, as is the Pandora.

ianat182
 
Seajet said:
Alfie168

The Dehler 25 is a nice boat for light weekend use, but way overpriced, underbuilt & underballasted; the water ballast to aid trailing does nothing for room below and relatively little for righting.

I have been alongside Dehlers of various sizes, the interesting thing was despite completely different mast step arrangements, 3 were suffering collapse of the step, or deck ( 25 ) through mast compression loads; rigs staying up seemed to be regarded a bonus, but maybe that was hard racing.

Not my idea of an offshore boat, but probably very good indeed as a trailer sailer, a lot better than an Anderson 22 for that.
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Mine's a 22 not a 25, but the 25 is the same boat on steroids. Suprised about mast compression as forces are taken through the substantial keelbox to the hull on mine. There have been some where the balsa core has got wet beneath the mast step and needs digging out and replacing, but they are not alone in that given their age. Its a DIY job for the keen, but possibly not for me.

Overpriced..probably, but underbuilt noooo. Most are mid 80s build and going strong. You are the first person I have ever heard make that comment. I can't speak about later Dehlers, but they all seem to sail well. I don't see why you wouldn't take it offshore if properly prepared, but given they were designed for lake sailing with high masts and lots of sail, then inshore is more appropriate and reefed in a lot of cases. They certainly shift in light winds and with proper foils on keel and skeg rudder its a ballerina to sail. Its clearly not for bashing through big seas with the sails pinned in, its just not designed for that. They sold quite a lot in Germany and Holland (don't know exactly how many) and are still very popular there. Most spares are still available too, which is quite something.

Here's a Dutch 22 being driven fairly hard, probably a tad oversailed, but he has got four on board and two on the rail. Seems to be going OK, but i'd have put one reef in the main and rolled the genny a touch..given age and infirmity etc...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09Ht2z1WFjI&feature=related


Your experience of them does not match mine nor that of the (few in UK) owners of them I have met. I think they were too pricey to sell here when new, like a lot of German stuff in years gone by.

From Yachting Monthly A-Z of boats "Both boats are light and have a big rig so need to be reefed early, but have excellent dinghy like performance in light to medium airs..Dehler 22.....Build quality is high.....and of the 25..Performance is superb. Over 1500 sold worldwide. Launch and recovery system makes her one of the largest practical trailer sailers" All of which i'd say is fair comment. They are not very roomy, but you can see that from looking at one, but even my 22 can sleep four, at a pinch.

Tim
 
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The Hunter Sonata's been mentioned.

But also consider the lift keel version, she does sail well with the ability to take the mud.

With a trailer it's easy to take home for the winter, saving dosh.

Downside, no standing headroom.

I sold mine in 1999, the buyer still owns and uses her, she's in Hill Head Harbour.

Also a Wayfarer will do all that you're asking.
 
As a biased owner, I think a Red Fox would also fit your category. Will dry out and has reasonable-to-good windward performance. Very good accommodation for the size means that it's a good boat for overnighting.
 
RobF said:
As a biased owner, I think a Red Fox would also fit your category. Will dry out and has reasonable-to-good windward performance. Very good accommodation for the size means that it's a good boat for overnighting.
Click to expand...

I'd second that. Its a great sailing adaptable boat in all its forms.

Tim
 
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